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Thread: Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

  1. #346
    TOL Subscriber patrick jane's Avatar
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    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  2. #347
    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Seeing what you quoted in this response in addition to what you quoted in your first response to me here:



    I do not see how we can go any further: it says what it says, plain as day.
    But it apparently does not fit with what you expect or want it to say.

    The first man is of the earth, (Gen2:7), the second man is of the heavens, (Gen1:26-28).
    The first man is natural, (Gen2:7), the second man is spiritual, (Gen1:26-28).
    Genesis 1&2 are not in chronological order according to Paul.
    But the "first man" of Gen 2:7 was also given dominion over all the earth--see Gen 2:19, for what you have the jurisdiction to name, that you have dominion over. So was the "second man" of Gen 1:26-28. If they were both given such dominion, and they were different men, their dominions would conflict.

    For their dominions not to conflict, they must be the same person. Thus, Genesis is not talking about a "spiritual man", but about the earthy one--named "Adam" after the earth.

    To read into Genesis 1:26 a spiritual man is to deny Jesus Christ's claim to that title.

    You read too much into scripture, it seems, no doubt because it doesn't say what you expect or want it to say. I certainly don't get out of it what you are putting into it.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Derf For Your Post:

    patrick jane (February 14th, 2018)

  4. #348
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    FLAT EARTH: The Second Heaven Explained...

    https://youtu.be/BdGBDjNNUiw - 14 minutes - click on link for full screen view -


    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  5. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    "Look Up" - The Flat Earth Revelation & the Last Days... [Luke 21]

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    Luke 21 King James Version (KJV)

    21 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
    2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
    3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
    4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
    5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
    6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
    8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
    9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
    10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
    11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
    12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
    13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
    14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
    15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
    16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
    17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
    18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
    19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
    37 And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
    38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

    https://youtu.be/yjnufPkU51w - 15 minutes - Click on link for full screen


    And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
    3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
    4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
    5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.
    6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
    7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
    8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
    9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
    10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
    11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
    12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
    13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
    14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
    15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
    16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.
    17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
    18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
    19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
    20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
    21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
    22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
    23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
    24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

    Job 37:10 KJV -
    By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.

    Revelation 20:9-10 KJV - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Face KJV Definition:
    1. In a general sense, the surface of a thing, or the side which presents itself to the view of a spectator; as the face of the earth; the face of the waters.
    2. A part of the surface of a thing; or the plane surface of a solid. Thus, a cube or die has six faces an octahedron has eight faces.
    3. The surface of the fore part of an animals head, particularly of the human head; the visage.
    In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread. Genesis 3.
    Joseph bowed himself with his face to the earth. Genesis 48.
    4. Countenance; cast of features; look; air of the face.
    We set the best face on it we could.
    5. The front of a thing; the forepart; the flat surface that presents itself first to view; as the face of a house. Ezekiel 41.
    6. Visible state; appearance.
    KJV Dictionary Definition: breadth

    BREADTH, n. bredth. The measure or extent of any plain surface from side to side; a geometrical dimension, which,multiplied into the length, constitutes a surface; as,the length of a table is five feet, and the breadth, three; 5x3=15 feet, the whole surface.

    http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/face.html
    Last edited by patrick jane; February 14th, 2018 at 12:01 PM.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  6. #350
    Over 5000 post club daqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    But the "first man" of Gen 2:7 was also given dominion over all the earth--see Gen 2:19, for what you have the jurisdiction to name, that you have dominion over. So was the "second man" of Gen 1:26-28. If they were both given such dominion, and they were different men, their dominions would conflict.

    For their dominions not to conflict, they must be the same person. Thus, Genesis is not talking about a "spiritual man", but about the earthy one--named "Adam" after the earth.
    Wow, talk about reading into the text. Who gave the sun its name in English? Who called the moon the moon in English? Does mean that man has dominion over the sun because he named it the sun? Do those who like to make labels for others they disagree with have dominion over them because they made a label for them like heretic, etc., etc.? One will not truly have dominion over the fowls of the air, the fish of the sea, and the wild beasts of the land until the same begins to understand the parables of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts. For instance the unclean fowls of the air and heavens are the Wicked One, the Devil, and the Satan, (Parable of the Sower in the three intentionally different variations from the synoptics).

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    To read into Genesis 1:26 a spiritual man is to deny Jesus Christ's claim to that title.

    You read too much into scripture, it seems, no doubt because it doesn't say what you expect or want it to say. I certainly don't get out of it what you are putting into it.
    I just told you Gen1:26-28 is prophecy speaking of the Son of Man: YOU are the denier of Messiah in favor of your carnal minded physical creation narrative which only concerns the beggarly elements of the natural creation, which is apparently the only thing you appear to be capable of seeing in Gen1. You should immediately stop taking what I have already said and trying to make it yours at my expense: if you want to agree with what I have already said, that is great, but I already claimed it and you have already denied it, and lying about what I said while claiming it is what you now say is going to cause you a world of psychological pain which you are going to force me to inflict upon you for lying about me.

  7. #351
    Over 5000 post club daqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    But the "first man" of Gen 2:7 was also given dominion over all the earth--see Gen 2:19, for what you have the jurisdiction to name, that you have dominion over. So was the "second man" of Gen 1:26-28. If they were both given such dominion, and they were different men, their dominions would conflict.

    For their dominions not to conflict, they must be the same person. Thus, Genesis is not talking about a "spiritual man", but about the earthy one--named "Adam" after the earth.

    To read into Genesis 1:26 a spiritual man is to deny Jesus Christ's claim to that title.

    You read too much into scripture, it seems, no doubt because it doesn't say what you expect or want it to say. I certainly don't get out of it what you are putting into it.
    Moreover you are flatly denying the scriptures which have already been posted and referenced multiple times. And no doubt you are the one scrambling, (as Patrick tried to say of me), so as to keep your physical creation dogma intact. However you do so against what the scripture teaches.

    This is the first place Adam does not have the article and is therefore a name:

    Genesis 1:26-28
    26 And Elohim said, Let us make Adam into our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flyers of the heavens, and over the bhemah-cattle, and over all the earth, and over every swarming-herding thing that moves upon the earth.
    27 So Elohim cut-down-created the adam into His own image, in the image of Elohim He cut-down-created him; male and female He cut-down-created them.
    28 And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flyers of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

    Psalm 8:3-8
    3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have ordained:
    4 What is man, that You are mindful of him? and the son of Adam, that You visit him?
    5 For You have made him a little lower than the Elohim-Angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor:
    6 You made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands, You have put all things under his feet:
    7 flocks and elaphim-heads of herds, all of them, and all the bhemah-beasts of the field:
    8 flyers of the heavens, and fish of the sea, passing through the paths of the yamim.


    And this is what the author of Hebrews says about the Psalm above:

    Hebrews 2:6-10 ASV
    6 But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8 Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.
    9 But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man.
    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


    You are denying what these scriptures teach so as to support your physical creation model.
    I am not spiritualizing the Word, no, but you and yours are carnalizing and naturalizing it.

  8. #352
    Over 5000 post club daqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    You read too much into scripture, it seems, no doubt because it doesn't say what you expect or want it to say.
    Moreover the following two places which have now already quoted are two out of the only three places where Adam is named before what follows in the genealogy of Genesis chapter five, (following one of the two passages already quoted herein, which is Gen5:2, which states that Elohim named him Adam in Gen1:26). Everywhere else in between Gen1:26 and Gen4:25 has the article, and Adam is therefore not yet named, but is simply called "ha-adam", which is to say, "the man", and the text therefore does not call him Adam because in those passages he was not yet named Adam.

    Spoiler
    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    This is the first place Adam does not have the article and is therefore a name:

    Genesis 1:26-28
    26 And Elohim said, Let us make Adam into our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flyers of the heavens, and over the bhemah-cattle, and over all the earth, and over every swarming-herding thing that moves upon the earth.
    27 So Elohim cut-down-created the adam into His own image, in the image of Elohim He cut-down-created him; male and female He cut-down-created them.
    28 And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flyers of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Yep, and keep reading all the way through, including chapter four, until the (re)creation of Adam in the likeness of Elohim, when Elohim called his name Adam:

    Genesis 5:1-2
    1 This is the book of the generations of Adam, in the day Elohim cut down Adam: in the likeness of Elohim He made him:
    2 Male and female He cut-down-created them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were cut-down-created.


    And that is why everyone named in the Gen 5 genealogy is stated to have lived, for it is the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, (Rev13:8, 17:8), and of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, (so as to make Adam and his wife coats of skins of light). And thus the previous chapter, Gen4 and the line of Cain, is the Book of the Dead, for those in that passage, (with the exception of Enoch and Lamech), are never stated to have lived: and they are thus the "permanent dwellers upon the land", (Rev17:8), for though they are dead, their names are forever written in the Torah. Moses pulled a fast one on ya'll...lol.

    IN ROSHIYTH-ARCHE [the federal Head] Elohim cut down the heavens and the earth.

    The third place where he is called by the name Adam in the text is the following:

    Genesis 4:25
    25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For Elohim, said she, has appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.


    That is it, Gen1:26, Gen4:25, and then Gen5:2, which follows only three verses after the above statement: every other occurrence of adam throughout the first five chapters of Genesis has written, ha-adam, the man, or la-adam, for the man, (yet unnamed). And by the surface context running throughout the whole of the first five chapters, and especially the statement from Gen5:2, it is just as Paul has expounded and I have also said.

    According to 1Cor15:22-47 this is the non-chronological order of events:

    Genesis 2:7
    7 And Yah the Elohim formed the adam of dust from the adamah, and breathed into his face the breath of life: and the adam became a living soul.
    [1Cor15:45]

    Then come Genesis chapters two, three, and four, which follow on through the line of Cain. And then Elohim makes cloaks of skins of Light for Adam and his wife, that is, by way of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, which therefore commences with the first chapter of Genesis, which is prophecy:

    Genesis 1:26-28
    26 And Elohim said, Let us make Adam into our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flyers of the heavens, and over the bhemah-cattle, and over all the earth, and over every swarming-herding thing that moves upon the earth.
    27 So Elohim cut-down-created the adam into His own image, in the image of Elohim He cut-down-created him; male and female He cut-down-created them.


    Genesis 4:25
    25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For Elohim, said she, has appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.


    Genesis 5:1-2
    1 This is the book of the generations of Adam, in the day Elohim cut down Adam: in the likeness of Elohim He made him:
    2 Male and female He cut-down-created them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were cut-down-created.


    Adam is therefore cut-down, (bara, like cutting down trees to build a house), and recreated in the Lamb, the Light of the Truth which enlightens every man coming into the world: the new-creation man in Messiah. Only then is he named by Elohim, and thus the Psalm calls this one the Son of Adam because it is foretelling what it means to be born from above, from right here in the very beginning as even the Prophet Isaiah states several times, (for example, Isa46:10). However, as that Isaiah passage says, these things foretold from the beginning were not yet done: for these things were not ultimately fulfilled until Golgotha, in Messiah, the Son of Man. It is therefore Paul and myself who are the true scripture literalists for reading the texts for what they actually say, as they are written, while you and yours are the apparent floosies who are employing English translations to make the scripture say what you believe it should say according to your own paradigm-mindsets.

  9. #353
    Over 5000 post club daqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    FLAT EARTH: The Second Heaven Explained...


    https://youtu.be/BdGBDjNNUiw - 14 minutes - click on link for full screen view -


    Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
    9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


    In the Septuagint for "the end" herein above we read eschatos, that is, the last things, (τα εσχατα), the end, or final outcome, and the same word is used of Messiah, for he claims to be the Protos and the Eschatos, (the first and the last), in the Apocalypse. Paul uses the same word for the Master when he calls him the Eschatos Adam, that is to say, the Last Adam, (1Cor15:45, which says, "the protos anthropos Adam became a living soul: the eschatos Adam a life-giving Spirit"). But according to the Isaiah passage above the end was declared from the beginning: and that word for beginning is reshiyth/roshiyth, the very same word found in Gen1:1. How far can one go back to find what was declared in the BEGINNING? Gen1:1 is the furthest we can go back if we would adhere only to what is written in the scripture. No doubt someone will think or say that this likely refers to Gen3:15, but would that be an honest assessment? knowing that the word reshiyth is found right here in this text from Isaiah? It most definitely speaks of Gen1:1, which says, "B-RESHIYTH", that is, "IN RESHIYTH/ROSHIYTH", and therefore it is very clear what Isaiah speaks of: and yet the Prophet says that those things written therein, in the beginning, in Gen1, declare the End, the Eschatos, who is Messiah, the Eschatos Adam or Last Adam according to Paul. Those things of which Isaiah speaks are therefore fulfilled in Messiah at Golgotha.

    Now therefore, can you please explain to me how it is that you and the author of the video with the frontispiece image file you have posted, of a flat earth with a solid dome around the heavens, was fulfilled in Messiah at the cross of Calvary-Golgotha?

    Otherwise be careful you are not denying the work of Messiah at Golgotha.

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    patrick jane (February 14th, 2018)

  11. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
    9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


    In the Septuagint for "the end" herein above we read eschatos, that is, the last things, (τα εσχατα), the end, or final outcome, and the same word is used of Messiah, for he claims to be the Protos and the Eschatos, (the first and the last), in the Apocalypse. Paul uses the same word for the Master when he calls him the Eschatos Adam, that is to say, the Last Adam, (1Cor15:45, which says, "the protos anthropos Adam became a living soul: the eschatos Adam a life-giving Spirit"). But according to the Isaiah passage above the end was declared from the beginning: and that word for beginning is reshiyth/roshiyth, the very same word found in Gen1:1. How far can one go back to find what was declared in the BEGINNING? Gen1:1 is the furthest we can go back if we would adhere only to what is written in the scripture. No doubt someone will think or say that this likely refers to Gen3:15, but would that be an honest assessment? knowing that the word reshiyth is found right here in this text from Isaiah? It most definitely speaks of Gen1:1, which says, "B-RESHIYTH", that is, "IN RESHIYTH/ROSHIYTH", and therefore it is very clear what Isaiah speaks of: and yet the Prophet says that those things written therein, in the beginning, in Gen1, declare the End, the Eschatos, who is Messiah, the Eschatos Adam or Last Adam according to Paul. Those things of which Isaiah speaks are therefore fulfilled in Messiah at Golgotha.

    Now therefore, can you please explain to me how it is that you and the author of the video with the frontispiece image file you have posted, of a flat earth with a solid dome around the heavens, was fulfilled in Messiah at the cross of Calvary-Golgotha?

    Otherwise be careful you are not denying the work of Messiah at Golgotha.
    How would an enclosed flat earth and cosmos take anything away from Jesus Christ?
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Moreover you are flatly denying the scriptures which have already been posted and referenced multiple times. And no doubt you are the one scrambling, (as Patrick tried to say of me), so as to keep your physical creation dogma intact. However you do so against what the scripture teaches.

    This is the first place Adam does not have the article and is therefore a name:

    Genesis 1:26-28
    26 And Elohim said, Let us make Adam into our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flyers of the heavens, and over the bhemah-cattle, and over all the earth, and over every swarming-herding thing that moves upon the earth.
    27 So Elohim cut-down-created the adam into His own image, in the image of Elohim He cut-down-created him; male and female He cut-down-created them.
    28 And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flyers of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

    Psalm 8:3-8
    3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have ordained:
    4 What is man, that You are mindful of him? and the son of Adam, that You visit him?
    5 For You have made him a little lower than the Elohim-Angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor:
    6 You made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands, You have put all things under his feet:
    7 flocks and elaphim-heads of herds, all of them, and all the bhemah-beasts of the field:
    8 flyers of the heavens, and fish of the sea, passing through the paths of the yamim.


    And this is what the author of Hebrews says about the Psalm above:

    Hebrews 2:6-10 ASV
    6 But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8 Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.
    9 But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man.
    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


    You are denying what these scriptures teach so as to support your physical creation model.
    I am not spiritualizing the Word, no, but you and yours are carnalizing and naturalizing it.
    Or, maybe you ARE spiritualizing the words, and I'm just denying what YOU teach. After all, I didn't make that claim--you defended yourself from it like it is something you run into often. Maybe you ought to heed what people say to you about your interpretations.

    The bible certainly doesn't read according to your interpretation on this one. You have to have some special knowledge that other people don't have to understand it. That was the complaint the reformers had with the Catholic Church--the Church was saying nobody was allowed to read for themselves--it always had to be interpreted by the clergy.

    That is the complaint others have had with some of the reformers, even.

    That is the error Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and many others have fallen into--that the bible isn't adequate to tell us the truth or is corrupted--that we need more revelation to get us back on track. That was Satan's argument in the Garden--"Hast God really said...?" That's why I appreciate @patrick jane's OP--he wants to discuss the biblical evidence (though I think he's gotten off track by referencing so many sources that are doing what you are doing). But there's no way to discuss the "biblical evidence" unless we actually can read the bible and determine what it says without having to re-write it a few times first.

    Your explanation seems to fumble over itself, hopelessly redefining everything you see. I'll let this suffice for an answer to all three of your posts.

    By the way, I don't mind hearing your explanation and interpretation. It's interesting to me. What bothers me is when you say there can't be any other explanations, except the one you are giving, and that is obviously not coming directly from scripture, but from a re-organizing of scripture. Your vehemence to get me to "see" what is written by re-explaining it all for me shows the difficult road you have chosen to tread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Or, maybe you ARE spiritualizing the words, and I'm just denying what YOU teach. After all, I didn't make that claim--you defended yourself from it like it is something you run into often. Maybe you ought to heed what people say to you about your interpretations.

    The bible certainly doesn't read according to your interpretation on this one. You have to have some special knowledge that other people don't have to understand it. That was the complaint the reformers had with the Catholic Church--the Church was saying nobody was allowed to read for themselves--it always had to be interpreted by the clergy.

    That is the complaint others have had with some of the reformers, even.

    That is the error Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and many others have fallen into--that the bible isn't adequate to tell us the truth or is corrupted--that we need more revelation to get us back on track. That was Satan's argument in the Garden--"Hast God really said...?" That's why I appreciate @patrick jane's OP--he wants to discuss the biblical evidence (though I think he's gotten off track by referencing so many sources that are doing what you are doing). But there's no way to discuss the "biblical evidence" unless we actually can read the bible and determine what it says without having to re-write it a few times first.

    Your explanation seems to fumble over itself, hopelessly redefining everything you see. I'll let this suffice for an answer to all three of your posts.

    By the way, I don't mind hearing your explanation and interpretation. It's interesting to me. What bothers me is when you say there can't be any other explanations, except the one you are giving, and that is obviously not coming directly from scripture, but from a re-organizing of scripture. Your vehemence to get me to "see" what is written by re-explaining it all for me shows the difficult road you have chosen to tread.
    Thanks, Derf. I suppose I have strayed off course and nobody really addresses the scriptures I've been posting except daqq. I respect him and learn a great deal from his interpretations even if I disagree. You two are the only ones keeping the thread alive besides me. I have always struggled with Genesis and Revelation for the underlying meanings and implications on all of scripture. I'm learning by studying the creation accounts and verses throughout scripture. Declaring the end from the beginning tells me God has declared His pleasure in Genesis.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Or, maybe you ARE spiritualizing the words, and I'm just denying what YOU teach. After all, I didn't make that claim--you defended yourself from it like it is something you run into often. Maybe you ought to heed what people say to you about your interpretations.

    The bible certainly doesn't read according to your interpretation on this one. You have to have some special knowledge that other people don't have to understand it. That was the complaint the reformers had with the Catholic Church--the Church was saying nobody was allowed to read for themselves--it always had to be interpreted by the clergy.

    That is the complaint others have had with some of the reformers, even.

    That is the error Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and many others have fallen into--that the bible isn't adequate to tell us the truth or is corrupted--that we need more revelation to get us back on track. That was Satan's argument in the Garden--"Hast God really said...?" That's why I appreciate @patrick jane's OP--he wants to discuss the biblical evidence (though I think he's gotten off track by referencing so many sources that are doing what you are doing). But there's no way to discuss the "biblical evidence" unless we actually can read the bible and determine what it says without having to re-write it a few times first.

    Your explanation seems to fumble over itself, hopelessly redefining everything you see. I'll let this suffice for an answer to all three of your posts.

    By the way, I don't mind hearing your explanation and interpretation. It's interesting to me. What bothers me is when you say there can't be any other explanations, except the one you are giving, and that is obviously not coming directly from scripture, but from a re-organizing of scripture. Your vehemence to get me to "see" what is written by re-explaining it all for me shows the difficult road you have chosen to tread.
    You are terribly mistaken in thinking that I gave you "my interpretation" because I gave you what the scripture itself says: and you deny what it says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    How would an enclosed flat earth and cosmos take anything away from Jesus Christ?
    Very simple: because Gen1 is fulfilled in Messiah at Golgotha, just as Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms and Writings foretell, and those things do not speak of a flat earth and beggarly elements of the literal physical cosmos with a solid dome around the atmosphere which you propose, (nor even about a globe earth either because that is not what Gen1 is speaking about). The literal physical interpretation of Gen1 makes a mockery of the Word of Elohim which is spiritual, even according to Paul, ("for we know that the Torah is spiritual", Rom7:14), moreover the very Testimony of the Messiah, (Joh4:23,24). A wrong interpretation therefore misapplies what is written about Messiah and applies the Gen1 prophecy to something else: the literal physical cosmos, which is erroneous because the model does not work either way anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Very simple: because Gen1 is fulfilled in Messiah at Golgotha, just as Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms and Writings foretell, and those things do not speak of a flat earth and beggarly elements of the literal physical cosmos with a solid dome around the atmosphere which you propose, (nor even about a globe earth either because that is not what Gen1 is speaking about). The literal physical interpretation of Gen1 makes a mockery of the Word of Elohim which is spiritual, even according to Paul, ("for we know that the Torah is spiritual", Rom7:14), moreover the very Testimony of the Messiah, (Joh4:23,24). A wrong interpretation therefore misapplies what is written about Messiah and applies the Gen1 prophecy to something else: the literal physical cosmos, which is erroneous because the model does not work either way anyways.
    I understand what you're saying but I'm not placing the interpretation of the earth and cosmos above Christ's fulfillment. To me, it's one aspect of creation that makes sense to me. I take the Bible literal whenever I feel necessary. It's not me who proposes it but many others before me. I simply think it's possible according to scripture. It's true that maybe we shouldn't be concerning ourselves with this topic but I decided It's important for me to explore and study. If I've got it all wrong then I'm in good company. I don't believe the accounts of creation, the earth and the cosmos are just a "story" that God told that we need not interpret, do you?
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    I understand what you're saying but I'm not placing the interpretation of the earth and cosmos above Christ's fulfillment. To me, it's one aspect of creation that makes sense to me. I take the Bible literal whenever I feel necessary. It's not me who proposes it but many others before me. I simply think it's possible according to scripture. It's true that maybe we shouldn't be concerning ourselves with this topic but I decided It's important for me to explore and study. If I've got it all wrong then I'm in good company. I don't believe the accounts of creation, the earth and the cosmos are just a "story" that God told that we need not interpret, do you?
    I believe that Genesis 1&2 are two completely different creation stories because of what is written in each of them: they cannot be combined as many seem to think. We know from what Paul says in 1Cor15:47 that the first man is of the earth, earthy, that is, choikos, (χοικος), "dust-like" dusty, dirty "dirtish", from the dirt, and in Gen2:7 that is the adamah, which is the soil, and surely not the same as eretz, which is used throughout Gen1. In Gen2 the adam or man is formed first, (formed, as clay being formed or molded into shape by the Potter), and all of the animals are then made after the man, and they are not made from eretz but from adamah-soil, just as the man:

    Genesis 2:18-20 KJV
    18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
    19 And out of the ground
    [adamah-soil] the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam [ha-adam, the man, not yet named: the KJV is wrong] to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam [ha-adam, the man] called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
    20 And Adam
    [ha-adam, the man] gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam [la-adam, for the man] there was not found an help meet for him.

    This is by no means the same as Gen1, where every creature is made either in the sea/from the sea or from the eretz, with the exception of only one thing or class of things, for the only place where adamah is even mentioned in Gen1 is the following:

    Genesis 1:24-25
    24 And God said, Let the earth
    [eretz] bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth [eretz] after his kind: and it was so.
    25 And God made the beast of the earth
    [eretz] after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth [adamah] after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    This is the only place where adamah appears in Gen1, and that is because herein it concerns only the creeping things that creep upon the surface of the earth which is the adamah-soil. You can see by the context this is not the same as Gen2 because all of the creatures are made from the earth or land, (eretz), with the only single exception being the creepers creeping upon the adamah. There is no way to combine these two creations as one because not only is one creation from the adamah, (Gen2), and the other from the eretz, (Gen1), but the orders of creation are not the same as explained previously above and shown by the texts and contexts. Gen2 has the man being created first because it is the natural creation. Gen1 has the opposite order, with Adam being re-created last of all, in the sixth yom, and all the other creatures having been made before he was cut down into the image and likeness of Elohim. They are not the same creation: for the first man is of the earth, earthy, dust-like, choikos, (Gen2:7, 1Cor15:47 ASV), and the second man is from the heavens, (Gen1:26-28, 1Cor15:47 ASV), and therefore Gen1 is not fulfilled until Golgotha. What therefore is VERY GOOD? (Gen1:31)? The "new man" new creation in Messiah is what Elohim says is VERY GOOD!

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