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Thread: The Hebrew Epistles and Where Do They Fit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I should have realized earlier that it is impossible to reason with someone who insists that Peter did not sin even though Paul said the following about him:

    "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews"
    (Gal.2:11-14).

    According to your strange ideas even though Peter was to be blamed and he walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel you say that he was walking in the light and he didn't sin.

    I just cannot trick my mind into believing that and I can see that further discussion on this subject will be futile.
    Ah, don't go all holier-than-thou on me, Jerry.

    If you read sin into those words of Paul's, I'm not surprised you seem to believe we are still under the bondage of the law. Paul doesn't even come close to saying Peter was sinning. Paul held himself to a very high standard, but even he did things contrary to the gospel of Grace. He circumcised Timothy "because of the Jews", and that is exactly what Peter was doing.

    Acts 16:1-3
    Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

    Perhaps you could enlighten me on what the difference is between this episode above and what Peter did.

    Gal. 2:12-14 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Ah, don't go all holier-than-thou on me, Jerry.
    It's not a matter of being holier but instead I am not able to trick my mind into believing that Peter was walking in the light when Paul said the following about him:

    "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews"
    (Gal.2:11-14).

    According to your ideas even though Peter was not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel he was walking in the light!

    We also know that John's first epistle was written to believers:

    "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake"
    (1 Jn.2:12).

    But you say that what he said at 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers!

    Can you quote even one recognized theologian who says that? I don't know if there is one but I am just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Down through history and even today all people are saved by grace through faith:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    Hi Jerry and if what you says true , that all were saved by FAITH and GRACE , How were people saved from Adam UNTIL Moses ?? Rom 5:14 ??

    Waiting for your reply ??

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post

    If you read sin into those words of Paul's, I'm not surprised you seem to believe we are still under the bondage of the law. Paul doesn't even come close to saying Peter was sinning. Paul held himself to a very high standard, but even he did things contrary to the gospel of Grace. He circumcised Timothy "because of the Jews", and that is exactly what Peter was doing.

    Acts 16:1-3
    Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

    Perhaps you could enlighten me on what the difference is between this episode above and what Peter did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It's not a matter of being holier but instead I am not able to trick my mind into believing that Peter was walking in the light when Paul said the following about him:

    "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews"
    (Gal.2:11-14).

    According to your ideas even though Peter was not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel he was walking in the light!
    So rather than respond to what I wrote, you expect me to move on?

    I need to hear why you think Peter did anything different than Paul did, himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Down through history and even today all people are saved by grace through faith:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    Hi mJerry , so stop AVOIDING Rom 5:14 and either you know OR you don't !!

    Explain it , as I have written about many times !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I don't agree that believers can ever be "defiled", but are clean every whit.

    Think of it, Jerry. If we can be defiled, then we would walk around in a constant state of defilement. What line would you draw for what defiles us and what doesn't? Am I defiled when I lie to someone? Am I defiled when I covet something that isn't mine? Must I confess everything I do in order to not be defiled?
    Hi glorydaz , I wonder if Jerry know about the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN ??

    Or what Paul calls the Old Nature OR the New Nature !!

    Probably not !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi glorydaz , I wonder if Jerry know about the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN ??

    Or what Paul calls the Old Nature OR the New Nature !!

    Probably not !!

    dan p
    I think there are lots of people who think it's too good to be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I need to hear why you think Peter did anything different than Paul did, himself.
    Do you think that Paul did the same thing that he accused Peter of doing--"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel."

    I see no evidence of that.

    But I still cannot trick my mind into believing that Peter was walking in the light when Paul accused him of not walking according to the truth of the gospel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi mJerry , so stop AVOIDING Rom 5:14 and either you know OR you don't !!
    Here is how people were saved between Adam and Moses:

    "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).

    "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"
    (Acts 10:35).

    They were all saved by believing the revelation which they had from God and were saved just like Abraham was saved:

    "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
    (Ro.4:3).

    How do you think that they were saved, Dan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Do you think that Paul did the same thing that he accused Peter of doing--"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel."

    I see no evidence of that.

    But I still cannot trick my mind into believing that Peter was walking in the light when Paul accused him of not walking according to the truth of the gospel.

    You have some strange ideas.
    I find it strange that you can't see the similarities with what Paul had done, himself. What EXACTLY did Peter do? He stopped eating with the Gentiles in fear of the Jews. Right?

    Gal. 2:11-12 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

    Paul did exactly the same things that Peter did. More than once. When he said he "became as a Jew", he was doing the same that Peter had done. He circumcised Timothy so the Jews wouldn't be offended, for instance. Peter could have accused Paul of the same thing when he took the vow and cut his hair and circumcised Timothy.....
    Acts 16:3

    1 Corinthians 9:20
    20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

    Please tell me why it was different. I'm all ears. They were both acting as though the Gospel of Grace wasn't enough by itself.

    Or was it the fact that it was a bad example to the others who were there? That's a great sin, do you think?

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    The motive of Paul in regard to what he said at 1 Corinthians 9:20 was entirely different than Peter's motive when Paul accused him of not walking according to the truth of the gospel. Paul's motive was altogeter honorable while Peter's motive was altogether shameful.

    But you say that even though Peter was not walking according to the truth of the gospel he was walking in the light!

    I don't think you are seeing the light if that is what you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Here is how people were saved between Adam and Moses:

    "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Heb.11:6).

    "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"
    (Acts 10:35).

    They were all saved by believing the revelation which they had from God and were saved just like Abraham was saved:

    "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
    (Ro.4:3).

    How do you think that they were saved, Dan?

    Hi Jerry and Gen 4:4 explains it , but Heb 11:4 is yet better by FAITH Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain !!

    Though it is by FAITH , because Faith told him to bring a LAMB for a BLOOD sccrifice !!

    Cain brought the WORK of His Hand , the Ftuit of his hands , in Gen 4:3 !!

    It is the same today , works , Baptism , Repentance , Ordinances , Feast Days , Sabbaths Col 2:13-17 !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The motive of Paul in regard to what he said at 1 Corinthians 9:20 was entirely different than Peter's motive when Paul accused him of not walking according to the truth of the gospel. Paul's motive was altogeter honorable while Peter's motive was altogether shameful.

    But you say that even though Peter was not walking according to the truth of the gospel he was walking in the light!

    I don't think you are seeing the light if that is what you think.
    I don't think you are seeing that we do not move back into darkness once we have the LIGHT OF LIFE in us. We are no longer children of the darkness, so our faults (even our fears or our hypocrisies) can NEVER move us out of the Light of LIFE which is Christ Jesus.



    1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The motive of Paul in regard to what he said at 1 Corinthians 9:20 was entirely different than Peter's motive when Paul accused him of not walking according to the truth of the gospel. Paul's motive was altogeter honorable while Peter's motive was altogether shameful.
    Besides which, when I mentioned Jesus said lusting is committing adultery, you claimed that was for the future kingdom on earth, so why are you using Paul's motive as proof that his actions were acceptable and Peter's weren't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I don't think you are seeing that we do not move back into darkness once we have the LIGHT OF LIFE in us. We are no longer children of the darkness, so our faults (even our fears or our hypocrisies) can NEVER move us out of the Light of LIFE which is Christ Jesus.

    1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    I don't think that you have yet to learn to separate a Christian's "position" in Christ (risen with Him and sitting with Him in heavenly places) from his "walk" (a Christian's actual life on the earth).

    Here we read the following words of Paul when he speaks of a "darkness" which is in regard to the Christian's "walk":

    "The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. "
    (Ro.13:12-13).

    Here it is plain that it is indeed possible for a Christian to do the things of darkness mentioned in this passage during his "walk." If it wasn't possible for a Christian partake of these things of darkness during his "walk" then why would Paul tell the Christian not to make provisions for the flesh which leads to the lusts of the flesh?

    If it wasn't possible for a Christian to "walk" in darkness then it would make no sense for Paul to tell them to "cast off the works of darkness."

    In order to understand Paul it is absolutely necessary to know the difference between the Christian's "position in Christ" and his "walk."

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