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Thread: The Hebrew Epistles and Where Do They Fit?

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    The Hebrew Epistles and Where Do They Fit?

    There are MANY Mid-Acts dispensationalists who do not confess their sins (1 Jn.1:9) and therefore they remain defiled. What does that say about their service for the LORD?:

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"
    (Ro.12:1).

    When a Christian judges himself in regard to his sins then he is in fact confessing his sin. And are we not to judge ourselves?:

    "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
    (1 Cor.11:31-32).

    If Paul is not speaking about a Christian judging himself in regard to his sins then what are to to judge ourselves about?

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    Is it the Lord that judges and chastises the sinner, or the sinner that judges and chastises himself?

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    There are MANY Mid-Acts dispensationalists who do not confess their sins (1 Jn.1:9) and therefore they remain defiled. What does that say about their service for the LORD?:

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"
    (Ro.12:1).

    When a Christian judges himself in regard to his sins then he is in fact confessing his sin. And are we not to judge ourselves?:

    "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
    (1 Cor.11:31-32).

    If Paul is not speaking about a Christian judging himself in regard to his sins then what are to to judge ourselves about?
    I have no sins to confess. They were put off by the circumcision of Christ. I am forgiven all trespasses.

    Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

    Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    Your attempt to misappropriate scripture to us that has nothing to do with us "confessing sins" (typical hijacked version of 1 John 1:9) is a denial that they were already dealt with 2000 years ago when Christ died for them all (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

    Just how many of your sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago and are in need of forgiveness today?
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    I have no sins to confess. They were put off by the circumcision of Christ. I am forgiven all trespasses.
    In regard to 1 Corinthians 11:31 what is Paul speaking about when he said, "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."

    Judged about what? From the context I would say that their behavior was sinful. What do you think?

    In the same epistle Paul addressed those in the church at Corinth AND "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor.1:2).

    So Paul's words in that epistle are addressed to all the believers living during the time when he wrote that epistle. That would include all the Gentile believers and all the Jewish believers. And here is what he told them:

    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

    Paul says that "all" of those whom he addressed were baptized into the Body of Christ. All the Jewish believers and all the Gentile believers.

    Therefore, the Apostle John was a member of the Body and his epistles were addressed to those in the Body. And today all believers are members of the Body and therefore what is found in John's epistle belongs to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    There are MANY Mid-Acts dispensationalists who do not confess their sins (1 Jn.1:9) and therefore they remain defiled. What does that say about their service for the LORD?:

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"
    (Ro.12:1).

    When a Christian judges himself in regard to his sins then he is in fact confessing his sin. And are we not to judge ourselves?:

    "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
    (1 Cor.11:31-32).

    If Paul is not speaking about a Christian judging himself in regard to his sins then what are to to judge ourselves about?
    1 Cor. 11 can't be talking about sins, because the wages of sin is death.

    When we judge ourselves, we are recognizing something the Lord may be wanting us to do, or some unprofitable thing we may be engaging in. When we thus judge ourselves, chastening is not required.

    It's when we don't acknowledge or notice something we are doing that is not expedient, then the Lord may have to judge (by chastening) us to get our attention.

    It's the same as we do with our kids. If they figure it out for themselves, there is no need to chasten them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

    So Paul's words in that epistle are addressed to all the believers living during the time when he wrote that epistle. That would include all the Gentile believers and all the Jewish believers. And here is what he told them:

    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

    Paul says that "all" of those whom he addressed were baptized into the Body of Christ. All the Jewish believers and all the Gentile believers.

    Therefore, the Apostle John was a member of the Body and his epistles were addressed to those in the Body. And today all believers are members of the Body and therefore what is found in John's epistle belongs to them.
    There was a time when they were not all in the body. John talks about obedience to the commandments, for instance. Paul tells us Jesus Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.

    When was this talking about?

    Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    And isn't there somewhere in Acts where it says John was to go to the Jews? It makes sense that his message would be taylored for the Jews, especially before Paul's Gospel was preached to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Is it the Lord that judges and chastises the sinner, or the sinner that judges and chastises himself?
    If a Christian doesn't judge himself then the LORD will chasten him:

    "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
    (1 Cor.11:31-32).

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    1 Cor. 11 can't be talking about sins, because the wages of sin is death.
    The words of Paul in those verses are addressed to those who believed in the Lord Jesus and here is what He said about them:

    "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"
    (Jn.11:25-26).

    Obviously He is not speaking of a physical death but instead a spiritual death.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    When we judge ourselves, we are recognizing something the Lord may be wanting us to do, or some unprofitable thing we may be engaging in.
    No, the words of Paul are referring to "guilt" and of course guilt is in regard to a person's sins:

    "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord"
    (1 Cor.11:27).

    If it were a matter of doing something which is merely unprofitable there would be no guilt involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    There was a time when they were not all in the body.
    At the time when Paul wrote his first epistle to the church at Corinth all believers (both Jews and Gentiles) were in the Body. Therefore, those who received John's epistles were in the Body and they were expecting to be raptured just like every other members of the Body of Christ:

    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

    If John was expecting to put on an earthly body when He returns then he would have known exactly what he would be like because He saw the Lord Jesus appear in an earthly, resurrected body. This can only be speaking of the rapture when all those in the Body will put on a glorious body just like the body of the Lord Jesus (Phil.3:20-21).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    In regard to 1 Corinthians 11:31 what is Paul speaking about when he said, [I]"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."
    Don't even attempt to dodge the fact that you put the Body of Christ under 1 John 1:9 KJV.
    Your typical hijacked version of 1 John 1:9 KJV is a denial that the sin/sins issue was settled 2000 years ago when Christ died for them all (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). How dare you try and put members of the Body of Christ under 1 John 1:9 KJV whichhas NOTHING to do with us!

    Please answer how many of your sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago and are in need of forgiveness today and how are they forgiven today?


    As to 1 Corinthians 11, Paul's recollection of the night in which the Lord was betrayed in his rebuke to the Corinthians for eating and drinking in front of a sold out and hungry church of God is NOT about confessing sins. What planet are you on?
    Last edited by heir; January 25th, 2018 at 12:16 PM.
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    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

    Paul says that "all" of those whom he addressed were baptized into the Body of Christ. All the Jewish believers and all the Gentile believers.

    Therefore, the Apostle John was a member of the Body and his epistles were addressed to those in the Body. And today all believers are members of the Body and therefore what is found in John's epistle belongs to them.
    Leaping lizards! Talk about jumping to conclusions with nothing to substantiate your claim. John has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ (Matthew 10:5-6 KJV, Matthew 19:28 KJV) much less Gentiles (3 John 1:7 KJV). God's word doesn't belong in a blender.
    Last edited by heir; January 25th, 2018 at 12:31 PM.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Leaping lizards! Talk about jumping to con
    clusions with nothing to substantiate your claim. John has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ (Matthew 10:5-6 KJV, Matthew 19:28 KJV) much less Gentiles (3 John 1:7 KJV). God's word doesn't belong in a blender.
    To whom did Paul address the following words?:

    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
    (1 Cor.12:13).

    Of course those words were addressed not only to those in the church at Corinth but also " all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor.1:2).

    So Paul told every believer, both Jew and Gentile, that they are all baptized into one body.

    But you say not "all" but only "some."

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    As to 1 Corinthians 11, Paul's recollection of the night in which the Lord was betrayed in his rebuke to the Corinthians for eating and drinking in front of a sold out and hungry church of God is NOT about confessing sins. What planet are you on?
    So what they were doing was not a sin, even though Paul said that they were "guilty" (1 Cor.11:27)? Of course some of them were sinning and if they didn't judge themselves about those sins and cease from their sinful behavior then they would be chastened of the LORD:

    "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
    (1 Cor.11:31).

    That is the same chastening we read in the book of Hebrews:

    "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"
    (Heb.12:4-7).

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Don't even attempt to dodge the fact that you put the Body of Christ under 1 John 1:9 KJV.
    Your typical hijacked version of 1 John 1:9 KJV is a denial that the sin/sins issue was settled 2000 years ago when Christ died for them all (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). How dare you try and put members of the Body of Christ under 1 John 1:9 KJV whichhas NOTHING to do with us!
    The Lord Jesus also died for those who received the Hebrew epistles and Peter tells them this:

    "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).

    This too:

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls"
    (1 Pet.2:24-25).

    J. C. O'Hair had the following to say about 1 Peter 3:18:

    "Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphais mine] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; January 25th, 2018 at 03:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Please answer how many of your sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago and are in need of forgiveness today and how are they forgiven today?
    Let us look at this verse:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
    (1 Jn.1:9).

    The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "forgive" is "to send away" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

    Any sin which a Christian commits defiles him and makes him unholy. And in order to have that sin sent away and be cleansed from the defilement which it caused a Christ confesses that sin or acknowledges it as a sin.

    Or perhaps you do not think that your sins do not defile you even with the following words of the Lord Jesus in view:

    "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man"
    (Mt.15:18-20).

    The Apostle John tells us how to go from a state of being defiled and unholy into a state of being cleansed and therefore holy. Do you not think that the sins of Christian defiles them?
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; January 25th, 2018 at 05:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    To whom did Paul address the following words?:

    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"(1 Cor.12:13).
    He is testifying a body truth to those who trusted the Lord believing the gospel of Christ, but if you think for one minute that all at Corinth were in the body is ignorance on your part. It doesn't take much to show a mixed bag of people there not in the body. Certainly the 12 were not included in the body truth of 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV as you can prove nowhere in their writings of baptism by one Spirit. The Lord was their baptizer and they also baptized a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Surely, you are not calling those the same or applying those to us as well. You'd be a fool to suggest such a thing.

    So what they were doing was not a sin, even though Paul said that they were "guilty" (1 Cor.11:27)? Of course some of them were sinning and if they didn't judge themselves about those sins and cease from their sinful behavior then they would be chastened of the LORD:

    "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
    (1 Cor.11:31).
    Put your script down and think! This is all total recall of the night in which the Lord was betrayed. It had nothing to do with the Corinthians being judged or chastened. No one in the Body of Christ can be condemned with the world! Romans 8:1 KJV
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Let us look at this verse:
    I know what 1 John 1:9 KJV says and what it means for those people. I also know that MY APOSTLE preaches (that we are forgiven all trespasses). For you to insist that they are both to us is a denial of the finished work of the cross in our stead. It is an other gospel that you are preaching! You can't show from our apostle, speaking to Gentiles, given the dispensation of the grace of God to usward; how we are in need of forgiveness as forgiveness of sins took place 2000 years before we were born (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV).

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Please answer how many of your sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago and are in need of forgiveness today and how are they forgiven today?
    crickets
    Last edited by heir; January 26th, 2018 at 12:46 AM. Reason: fix typo
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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