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Thread: The Vicarious Life and Death of Christ for the Believer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice, the "lamb without blemish"-propitiation. But His keeping the law was not imputed to us, as Pate argues. This "vicarious law keeping" is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Romans 5:10 KJV - For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    "saved by his life."

    This is a reference to His resurrected life, not his life of obedience, fulfilling the law on earth, which Pate argues is reckoned/imputed/credited to our account.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    If you're saying He had to be sinless in order to be the perfect once-only Sacrifice for our sin, then that's true because that's found in both the OT and the NT. No Bible believer would argue it.

    But if you're saying that His perfectly sinless life...that which He walked the flesh...is attributed/credited/reckoned to the believer, then that sinless walk ALONE would justify the believer by itself, by rendering him as sinless as Christ was, completely apart from the cross. It would make His death superfluous--it would say sin was dealt with by His life BEFORE the cross. It sounds vaguely similar to the Mormon belief that the work of salvation was wrought in the garden the night before the cross.

    Perhaps I've been misunderstanding your claim, in which case I apologize. But, in any case, Paul said it was His death on the cross and His resurrection that accomplished our forgiveness and justification, not His sinless walk (by which we can no longer know Him, 2 Cor 5:16)
    God demands righteousness. Jesus said, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" The law demands perfection. We don't have it to offer.

    When Jesus died on the cross he put to death the whole Adamic race in himself, Romans 6:6. This is why Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" God has brought forth a new humanity in the resurrection of Jesus, "If any man be "In Christ" he is a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17. The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Sin has been atoned for. "We are complete in Jesus Christ" Colossians 2:10. Jesus has victoriously justified the ungodly and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18,19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    God demands righteousness. Jesus said, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" The law demands perfection. We don't have it to offer.

    When Jesus died on the cross he put to death the whole Adamic race in himself, Romans 6:6. This is why Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" God has brought forth a new humanity in the resurrection of Jesus, "If any man be "In Christ" he is a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17. The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Sin has been atoned for. "We are complete in Jesus Christ" Colossians 2:10. Jesus has victoriously justified the ungodly and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18,19.
    But you teach that sinners Christ lived and died for are still lost and condemned!

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    TOL Legend musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Romans 5:10 KJV - For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Rom 5:9 explains it.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    God demands righteousness.
    Christ provides it to all who believe the gospel of grace, by His death, resurrection and indwelling life, not by His earthly walk.


    Jesus said, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" The law demands perfection. We don't have it to offer.
    Nor does God expect it from those He declared dead to Law.

    When Jesus died on the cross he put to death the whole Adamic race in himself, Romans 6:6. This is why Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" God has brought forth a new humanity in the resurrection of Jesus, "If any man be "In Christ" he is a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17. The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Sin has been atoned for. "We are complete in Jesus Christ" Colossians 2:10. Jesus has victoriously justified the ungodly and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18,19.
    Still waiting for chapter and verse on believers being saved by His earthly walk AND His death.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
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    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice, the "lamb without blemish"-propitiation. But His keeping the law was not imputed to us, as Pate argues. This "vicarious law keeping" is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
    If one wants to be consistent with it, seems he would have to place faith in Christ's Law walk for his righteousness, in addition to trusting His death for his sin. But that would be adding to Paul's gospel since Paul never said to do both. I can't tell if Pate is that consistent with it though.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Christ provides it to all who believe the gospel of grace, by His death, resurrection and indwelling life, not by His earthly walk.
    yup...just a gift ain’t it?




    Nor does God expect it from those He declared dead to Law.
    weelllllll...how you suppose we are able to abide in His love then?



    Still waiting for chapter and verse on believers being saved by His earthly walk AND His death.
    I know right? Even Israel was saved from slavery without the Law...”who needs it?” was the general thought and consensus...even killed the Law giver for arguing otherwise...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    yup...just a gift ain’t it?




    weelllllll...how you suppose we are able to abide in His love then?



    I know right? Even Israel was saved from slavery without the Law...”who needs it?” was the general thought and consensus...even killed the Law giver for arguing otherwise...
    You're too ignorant to even form the right questions to ask.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    You're too ignorant to even form the right questions to ask.
    Ouch...that easily triggered?

    Must be still sore or something eh?


    Some saw His walk and killed Him for it...some saw it, believed and were saved...AND took up their crosses and followed Him His Way because, well you know...He did...and told them to if they Loved Him...and wished to abide in His love...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Ouch...that easily triggered?

    Must be still sore or something eh?


    Some saw His walk and killed Him for it...some saw it, believed and were saved...AND took up their crosses and followed Him His Way because, well you know...He did...and told them to if they Loved Him...and wished to abide in His love...

    All that Jesus did and all that Jesus was, was for our justification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    All that Jesus did and all that Jesus was, was for our justification.
    Yup...and in Him we are a new creation not of this world not like our former selves at all...but living as He did doing as He did loving as He did...representing Him His Way

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    Lightbulb Double Imputation - Ours to Him, His to Us

    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice, the "lamb without blemish"-propitiation. But His keeping the law was not imputed to us, as Pate argues. This "vicarious law keeping" is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
    The imputation of Adam's Sin is immediate—God imputes the sin and guilt of Adam's sin to every soul created. Unlike some mediate view, God does not wait until we commit sin and then impute the guilt of sin upon us after we sin, rather we are born in sin and bear the guilt of Adam's sin. This is based upon the fact that there is a comparison of the guilt of Adam's Sin with the righteousness we have in Christ (the double imputation of 2 Cor. 5:21). The symmetry of Adam and Christ in Romans 5 is important.

    As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is but of guilt from us to Our Lord, and of merit from Him to us. Jesus Christ justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The imputation of Adam's Sin is immediate—God imputes the sin and guilt of Adam's sin to every soul created. Unlike some mediate view, God does not wait until we commit sin and then impute the guilt of sin upon us after we sin, rather we are born in sin and bear the guilt of Adam's sin. This is based upon the fact that there is a comparison of the guilt of Adam's Sin with the righteousness we have in Christ (the double imputation of 2 Cor. 5:21). The symmetry of Adam and Christ in Romans 5 is important.

    As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is but of guilt from us to Our Lord, and of merit from Him to us. Jesus Christ justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9.

    AMR
    And? Pay attention to the argument.

    The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, to be qualified to be the satisfactory sacrifice, the "lamb without blemish"-propitiation. But His keeping the law was not imputed to us, as Pate argues. This "vicarious law keeping" is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The imputation of Adam's Sin is immediate—God imputes the sin and guilt of Adam's sin to every soul created. Unlike some mediate view, God does not wait until we commit sin and then impute the guilt of sin upon us after we sin, rather we are born in sin and bear the guilt of Adam's sin. This is based upon the fact that there is a comparison of the guilt of Adam's Sin with the righteousness we have in Christ (the double imputation of 2 Cor. 5:21). The symmetry of Adam and Christ in Romans 5 is important.

    As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is but of guilt from us to Our Lord, and of merit from Him to us. Jesus Christ justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9.

    AMR

    "To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that he might be just, and THE JUSTIFIER of him that believes in Jesus" Romans 3:26.

    This scripture plainly teaches that we are justified by the righteousness of Christ. A righteous person is one that is 100% obedient to God's holy law. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, fulfilled all of the demands of God's law and in doing so justified us.

    If Jesus had failed to keep the law, where would we be?

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