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Thread: The Jesus Club

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    The Jesus Club

    A Buddhist friend was explaining his beliefs to me. And in the conversation he mentioned what bad karma it was for a Buddhist to commit suicide.

    I asked if a Buddhist committing suicide will be reincarnated as an ant or something worse. He started to explain how there are various branches of Buddhism, and they have rules regarding reincarnation, and that if one committees suicide, one can get sent to what sounded like our idea of "hell". I told him that all these rules for reincarnation sound complicated. He agreed saying he has studied it for 35 years and there is still lots he does not know.

    I told him Christianity is much simpler. Suppose you were going to a club, and a bouncer at the door asks you if you are a friend of the manager. If you are, you can come in, if not, you remain outside. I said, to enter the Jesus Club, the bouncer will look on a list of names of all Jesus' friends, and if you are on the list, you are welcomed into the Jesus Club, with perks like eternal life and happiness.

    He asked me if Buddhists and others would be allowed in, saying that Buddhists are very tolerant of all other faiths. I should have asked him if Buddhists consider themselves friends of Jesus. But instead I simply told him, "Sorry, no". The good news I told him, is that I don't believe in an ever burning hell, so if you don't make the Jesus Club, you are just wiped out. I had heard that Buddhists believed in Nirvana, which was a state like "nothingness" so we discussed this a little. As you may tell, I know nothing about Buddhism.

    Would you say this is a more-or-less accurate portrayal of Christianity, and what it takes to receive eternal life?
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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    With a lot of beliefs it is tied to the "original lie". "you will not surely die" ... it is the immortality factor. The Bible teaches you live, you die, you become dust in the earth. All are "asleep" in the grave and the dead no nothing. First resurrection, the saved .... and later the second resurrection the lost. All are in the grave until Jesus returns.

    There are many "christians" that believe that when one dies their "soul" either goes to hell .... or goes to heaven ... or goes to purgatory or some "limbo" place or reincarnated into something else. The Bible does not teach this. Nobody becomes "immortal" until Jesus returns .... NOBODY period. The belief is driven by the belief of a "immortal soul". This belief opens one up to many wrong beliefs such as familiar spirits, contacting the dead etc. Satan and his minions use this belief to deceive many people .... if one "thinks" he she sees and/or contacts the dead ... they are in fact being deceived by a demonic presence no matter how "friendly" it may appear.

    A "soul" is not something someone posses ... it is what they are a living being, a person. Any belief that teaches any kind of "immortality" outside of the 2nd coming of Jesus..is based on Satans' "original lie".

    1 Corinthians 15:54

    When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

    Paul describes it here that I refer to the "nutshell" explanation.

    1 Thessalonians 4

    15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    No "secret" rapture ... no purgatory, no limbo, no reincarnation. The only "rapture" if one wants to call it that ... is at Jesus' return.


    1st Corinthians 15

    50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

    “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
    55“O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

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    FIND THE INNER MAN-CRUSIFY THE OUTER PERSON
    (SPIRIT, MIND OF INNER MAN. SOUL, BODY OF INNER MAN)

    Col 3:9-10
    9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
    10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
    1 Pet 4:19
    19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
    Matt 22:16
    16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men.
    Rom 7:22
    22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
    Gal 5:24-25
    24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    John 6:63
    63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
    John 4:48
    48 Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe."
    Matt 12:38-39
    38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
    39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
    1 Tim 4:9-11
    9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance.
    10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
    11 These things command and teach.
    1 Tim 4:13-16
    13 Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
    14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
    15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all.
    16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
    1 Pet 4:19
    19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
    Eph 3:14-19
    14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
    16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,
    17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
    18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height--
    19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
    2 Cor 4:16-18
    16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
    17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
    18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
    Eph 4:21-24
    21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
    22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
    23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
    24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
    1 Pet 2:4-5
    4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
    5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    1 Pet 2:11-12
    11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,
    12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
    (NKJ)
    xxxx Your inner man consists of your spirit(the mind of your inner man) and your soul(the body of your inner man). All affections come from your soul and all decisions come from your spirit. Not all ideas but all decisions. All ideas come from the different beings in you. You get one opinion from your guardian angel. And you get one opinion from the devil. Then you choose who to agree with. But if you have the Holy Spirit He will give you a verse to show you who is who.
    All your emotions dwell in your outer person (body). All emotions are unclean spirits.


    Heb 4:12
    12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    (NKJ)


    Heb 10:38-39
    38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
    39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
    (NKJ)

    Gal 5:17
    17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
    (NKJ)

    1 Pet 1:3-9
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
    5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
    6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
    7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
    8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
    9 receiving the end of your faith-- the salvation of your souls.
    (NKJ)

    1Thes 5:21-23
    21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
    22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    (KJV)




    Go To Outer Person, Soul.

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    Pergatory

    Heb 9:27
    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
    Matt 13:34-35
    34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
    35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
    Luke 16:19-31
    19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
    20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
    21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
    23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
    25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
    26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
    27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
    28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
    29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
    30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
    31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"
    (NKJ)
    xxx Once someone dies they have to wait until the final white throne judgment. Some people call it pergatory. Some wait in comfort some wait in torment. On one side of the gulf is Abraham and those going to heaven. And the other side hell. But they all wait until the great white throne judgment.

    1 Pet 2:4-10
    4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
    5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
    7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,"
    8 and "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
    9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
    10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
    Eph 1:3-5
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
    5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
    Eph 2:20-22
    20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone,
    21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
    22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
    (NKJ)

    come to God by submitting to Jesus, you are the elect, precious. Are the born again. Jesus will cause many to stumble because they try to do it with the intellect. But those who believe it the way it is written from the Holy Spirit are a royal priesthood. Those who learn from the Holy spirit are those who were predestined for adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself. We are being build up to all come together in one dwelling place in the Spirit.

    PARADISE-THIRD HEAVEN

    Rev 2:7
    7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'
    (NKJ)

    Luke 23:43
    43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
    (NKJ)

    2 Cor 12:1-5

    1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
    2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
    4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.
    (NKJ)






    see-after death, see Judgment Day

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    xxx Once someone dies they have to wait until the final white throne judgment. Some people call it pergatory. Some wait in comfort some wait in torment. On one side of the gulf is Abraham and those going to heaven. And the other side hell. But they all wait until the great white throne judgment.
    Yes yes of course...and that gulf is small enough that the suffering rich man can converse with Abraham above the roar and din of eternal flames yes? LOL

    Apparently the rich man did not think the chasm that big as he asked Father Abraham to send Lazarus across for a refreshment...

    What drop of water would not vaporize in that fire? And what fire suit would poor Lazarus need to wear were he able to cross...silly rich man really didnt think things through did he...

    And somebody please update Abraham that all that Moses and Prophets stuff is over with...abolished dontcha know...LOL

    Oh and just how does the rich man know it’s Abraham? He had a name tag or jersey number yes? Good grief...

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleos View Post
    With a lot of beliefs it is tied to the "original lie". "you will not surely die" ... it is the immortality factor. The Bible teaches you live, you die, you become dust in the earth. All are "asleep" in the grave and the dead no nothing. First resurrection, the saved .... and later the second resurrection the lost. All are in the grave until Jesus returns.

    There are many "christians" that believe that when one dies their "soul" either goes to hell .... or goes to heaven ... or goes to purgatory or some "limbo" place or reincarnated into something else. The Bible does not teach this. Nobody becomes "immortal" until Jesus returns .... NOBODY period. The belief is driven by the belief of a "immortal soul". This belief opens one up to many wrong beliefs such as familiar spirits, contacting the dead etc. Satan and his minions use this belief to deceive many people .... if one "thinks" he she sees and/or contacts the dead ... they are in fact being deceived by a demonic presence no matter how "friendly" it may appear.

    A "soul" is not something someone posses ... it is what they are a living being, a person. Any belief that teaches any kind of "immortality" outside of the 2nd coming of Jesus..is based on Satans' "original lie".

    1 Corinthians 15:54

    When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

    Paul describes it here that I refer to the "nutshell" explanation.

    1 Thessalonians 4

    15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    No "secret" rapture ... no purgatory, no limbo, no reincarnation. The only "rapture" if one wants to call it that ... is at Jesus' return.


    1st Corinthians 15

    50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

    “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
    55“O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”
    None of your points prove your claim of "all are in the grave until Jesus returns." In fact, Jesus' words to the thief next to Him pretty much disproves your entire position.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    None of your points prove your claim of "all are in the grave until Jesus returns." In fact, Jesus' words to the thief next to Him pretty much disproves your entire position.


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    So Yahushua LIED? He said TODAY but He didnt get to paradise until 2 days later...for first fruits presentation...

    Without punctuation marks in the old greek manuscripts of course translators could edit to their favor inserting a misplaced comma to uphold a false teaching...

    “Verily I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” A LIE as He was not in paradise “TODAY”

    “Verily I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise”...TRUE He did say what was said “TODAY”...

    https://www.ministrymagazine.org/arc...-of-luke-23:43

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    So Yahushua LIED? He said TODAY but He didnt get to paradise until 2 days later...for first fruits presentation...

    Without punctuation marks in the old greek manuscripts of course translators could edit to their favor inserting a misplaced comma to uphold a false teaching...

    “Verily I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” A LIE as He was not in paradise “TODAY”

    “Verily I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise”...TRUE He did say what was said “TODAY”...

    https://www.ministrymagazine.org/arc...-of-luke-23:43
    So, your entire defense is based upon a comma, which you cannot prove, nor disprove, was added or mended by transcribers/copyists?

    And, you also skip over graves opening up on Easter. So, either way, logical deductions from Scriptural evidence demonstrates that souls post-Resurrection are received into Heaven or Hell.

    Also, why do you use "Yahushua?"


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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    So, your entire defense is based upon a comma, which you cannot prove, nor disprove, was added or mended by transcribers/copyists?
    I like to think it the other way around...that your bubble of hell and eternal torment is popped by a sharp little jot...or are commas tittles? Ha


    And, you also skip over graves opening up on Easter.
    any gospel accounts of either heaven and hell these resurrected were in prior? No telling how long they were dead before they were raised you think there would be some story about either heaven or hell...something like ”so there I was next to the tree of life sitting in Father Abraham’s bosom next to Lazarus and then POOF! here I am back in Jerusalem and now I gotta find a job”...


    So, either way, logical deductions from Scriptural evidence demonstrates that souls post-Resurrection are received into Heaven or Hell.
    huh? Logical deduction from graves opening up on first fruits? How is that again? If anything that souls had to be returned into flesh from either heaven or hell is absurd...robbed of joy as noted above or spared from justice in hell fire the opposite...

    Also, why do you use "Yahushua?"
    because it is closer to what Paul heard in Hebrew when having been knocked off his horse he asked “who are you?”

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    I like to think it the other way around...that your bubble of hell and eternal torment is popped by a sharp little jot...or are commas tittles? Ha
    You can think of it however you wish; your entire argument still rests on an unprovable theory, predicated on a comma.


    any gospel accounts of either heaven and hell these resurrected were in prior? No telling how long they were dead before they were raised you think there would be some story about either heaven or hell...something like ”so there I was next to the tree of life sitting in Father Abraham’s bosom next to Lazarus and then POOF! here I am back in Jerusalem and now I gotta find a job”...
    I never said that those who died before the Resurrection were immediately judged. You are creating a straw man. I specifically used the phrase "post-Resurrection."


    huh? Logical deduction from graves opening up on first fruits? How is that again? If anything that souls had to be returned into flesh from either heaven or hell is absurd...robbed of joy as noted above or spared from justice in hell fire the opposite...
    Attacking that straw man.

    because it is closer to what Paul heard in Hebrew when having been knocked off his horse he asked “who are you?”
    Where did you learn this?

    Hebrew spelling is "Yeshua," "Joshua," or "Jeshua." (As variants) The reason the spelling "Jesus" was used was to differentiate between the leader Joshua and Jesus.



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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    You can think of it however you wish; your entire argument still rests on an unprovable theory, predicated on a comma.
    you make Yahushua a LIAR...you have Him saying TODAY you are with me in paradise when He didnt go to paradise TODAY...that same day He died...




    I never said that those who died before the Resurrection were immediately judged. You are creating a straw man. I specifically used the phrase "post-Resurrection."
    now what? Graves opening on first fruits have no accounts of stories from hell or heaven...the people were merely “woke up”


    Attacking that straw man.
    lol...so your logical deduction of post resurrection souls received in heaven or hell is now something new? As pre resurrection they were not tormented in hell or zoomed straight to heaven?

    This hell dogma thingy is becoming more laughable...


    Where did you learn this?

    Hebrew spelling is "Yeshua," "Joshua," or "Jeshua." (As variants) The reason the spelling "Jesus" was used was to differentiate between the leader Joshua and Jesus.
    no kidding really?...the early KJV translators actually confused the Jesus with the Joshua...maybe they should have stuck with not differentiating them? LOL

    I like Yahushua...I mean it dont matter right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    So Yahushua LIED? He said TODAY but He didnt get to paradise until 2 days later...for first fruits presentation...
    Two days? Jesus didn't ascend to the Father for forty days after He rose from the dead.

    You don't seem to know where Paradise was before the cross, or where it was after the cross. Where were the righteous dead kept until Jesus ascended to the Father?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Two days? Jesus didn't ascend to the Father for forty days after He rose from the dead.
    oh so that makes the promise of “TODAY you will be with me in paradise” not a lie?


    You don't seem to know where Paradise was before the cross, or where it was after the cross. Where were the righteous dead kept until Jesus ascended to the Father?
    same place the evil dead were kept...asleep in their graves...

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    oh so that makes the promise of “TODAY you will be with me in paradise” not a lie?


    same place the evil dead were kept...asleep in their graves...
    Jesus died on the cross, and took the thief with Him to Paradise (Abraham's bosom) where all the righteous dead waited. If you believe in soul sleep, you must be a cult. Which one are you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    Pergatory

    Heb 9:27
    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
    Matt 13:34-35
    34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
    35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
    Things suggesting the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable...

    Luke 16:19-31
    19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
    20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
    21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    Psa 37:25
    I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

    22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
    As far as I know, all the dead lie in the grave till resurrected. For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised... not are raised now. Besides, Ecc 9:5
    For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

    And being carried to Abrahams bosom clearly is not literal.

    23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    I have never heard of Abraham's bosom as the place of the dead.
    And I have never heard of heaven and hell being able to communicate with each other.

    24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
    Strange request. This is obviously the first time the rich man and Abraham are communicating since this is the first time the rich man is about to make a request, and speak of his brothers.

    That being the case it makes perfect sense if this were a literal description since there will only be one communication before annihilation by fire. Also, the fire is approaching in the distance, and his tongue is dry, not his body on fire. Why not ask a bucket of water if his clothes were on fire? Because it's a parable, and meant to imply the rich man is in mental torment, resulting in a dry tongue.

    25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
    26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
    Here is the moral of the story. Suffer in this life, enjoy the next.

    If it was a literal gulf, then hell can be seen from heaven.

    27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
    28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
    29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
    30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
    31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"
    A further moral of the story that even under the OC God gave them enough knowledge to believe in to be saved.
    This is a definite dig at the Scribes and Pharisees, who did not believe, nor were persuaded even though one DID rise from the dead.

    xxx Once someone dies they have to wait until the final white throne judgment.
    Correct.

    Some people call it pergatory. Some wait in comfort some wait in torment.
    My belief is that all wait in the grave, in a sleep. Death is often likened to unconscious, dreamless sleep. John 11:11

    If the story has literal elements, then the wicked dead, who had a chance to believe, will see a flow of larva approaching them (the lake of fire) and they will have just moments of regret before being burned up - not unlike the description in the above story of Lazarus and the rich man. They will not know, for instance, that their brothers are by then either in heaven, or with them in judgement.

    The judgment of the dead occurs supposedly after the Millennium, when all is said and done, at the Great White Throne Judgment.

    Rev 20:5
    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...
    Rev 20:11

    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    The rich man is seeing this lake of fire approach, his tongue goes dry, a fictional talk with Abraham occurs, then the rich man is burnt up and annihilated.
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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