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Thread: R.C. Sproul: Dispensationalism Brought Us The ‘Carnal Christian'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Now we're getting somewhere with you.



    Didn't see that.



    See what I have made bold. The question in this instance is, what accuses the gentile?
    Do you see that the moral law is in actual fact in the conscience?
    You can never get rid of the moral law, only the legal jurisdiction of what failure meant under the old covenant.
    Law only makes obvious what is there inherent in man whether or not he is aware of it - that he is kin to Adam.

    And Law is only God's means of more than fair play on His part.

    Of showing man why He is condemned.

    Instead of just doing away with him.

    And Law is a means of a contrast between man in his doom, and tht hope that is the Cross.

    Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Some incompetent recently asked me when was I ever under the Law.

    I didn't even bother with much of an answer.

    Why bother? Nobody home.

    For it is clear from the Law and the Prophets that Gentiles were not only concluded under sin in those writings, but also not only proven under sin by said writings, but through Israel's own failure under the Law.

    Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

    The Law instructed the Jew in who he was to be like: holy like the God of Israel.

    But it also instructed him in who he was not to be like: the Gentiles.

    "Not so Lord" had exclaimed Peter "For I have never eaten any unclean thing."

    The Jew also proving in the end, however, what the Law had set out to prove; that the Jew was no better (which was why that diet was changed once more, by the way).

    But anyway, the Jew - proven no better than the Gentile.

    Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

    The long since before concluded under sin Gentile's response to all that?

    2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

    Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    Acts 17: 11, 12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Law only makes obvious what is there inherent in man whether or not he is aware of it - that he is kin to Adam.
    I would have said that the contrast is more in view than who fallen man can most identify with. The law asks the question to the sincere seeker of God, how can such a pure divine being still persevere with such junk? Yes?

    Let's step into Moses shoes for a moment. He's just seen the glory of God in the law, and compared it to the wretchedness of man. What does he say to God? "Show me your glory".
    In other words he's saying, "the law reveals a person who's ridiculously on another level to us, and yet this person is somehow willing to persevere with us? I want to see the person who is behind this crazy insane unobtainable righteousness."

    God responds, "you can't, but I'll show you my back".

    And Law is only God's means of more than fair play on His part.

    Of showing man why He is condemned.

    Instead of just doing away with him.
    True.

    And Law is a means of a contrast between man in his doom, and tht hope that is the Cross.
    Yes! Contrast.

    Now we're on the same page.

    Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Some incompetent recently asked me when was I ever under the Law.

    I didn't even bother with much of an answer.

    Why bother? Nobody home.

    For it is clear from the Law and the Prophets that Gentiles were not only concluded under sin in those writings, but also not only proven under sin by said writings, but through Israel's own failure under the Law.

    Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

    The Law instructed the Jew in who he was to be like: holy like the God of Israel.

    But it also instructed him in who he was not to be like: the Gentiles.

    "Not so Lord" had exclaimed Peter "For I have never eaten any unclean thing."

    The Jew also proving in the end, however, what the Law had set out to prove; that the Jew was no better (which was why that diet was changed once more, by the way).

    But anyway, the Jew - proven no better than the Gentile.
    Because no physical being can feel privileged compared to God. Yes?
    Both are sold under sin in Adam. The only difference is that the Jew should have a greater comprehension of it than the gentile, because the law ruthlessly reveals all of the shortfalls.

    Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

    The long since before concluded under sin Gentile's response to all that?

    2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

    Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    Acts 17: 11, 12
    Right.
    We're close on this, which is why your first posts confuse me.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    So you're going to ignore the thread direction because you want your little hobbyhorse question tackled?

    Death reigned because Adam's unrighteous act had made every one of his physical offspring unrighteous, who is an anti type of Christ who makes every one of his spiritual offspring righteous because of his righteous act.



    There was no Mosaic law, but there was a moral law in the conscience, and it is this where those people shall be judged.
    How do people do by very nature those things written in the law? The answer to this will be very interesting from you.




    Which was?



    See above.

    Hi and this is what Rom 5:14 is saying , just for you !!

    #1 , There is more than one gospel ?

    #2 , Death reigned and the AORIST TENSE tells us that pointing to Adam !!

    #3 This means that there never going to be FREE WILL ever again !!

    #4 We know from the text and Gen 4:4 , that Abel and Cain new what was required of them concerning what God wanted them to do to please God !!

    #5 The Gospel was for them to bring worship to God !!

    #6 Abel brought a LAMB and was accepted !!

    #7 But Cain brought the WORK of his HANDS and was not ACCEPTED , just as many do today by says the Water Baptism , and that REFUSE to call Jesus Lord as Rom 10:9 and 1 Cor 12:3 say is required , by the Holy Spirit !!

    #8 Adam is a picture of the Old creation unto DEATH !!

    #9 Cain is the PICTURE of the DYING WORKS PEOPLE !!

    #10 Christ is the PATTERN of a NEW CREATION !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and this is what Rom 5:14 is saying , just for you !!

    #1 , There is more than one gospel ?

    #2 , Death reigned and the AORIST TENSE tells us that pointing to Adam !!

    #3 This means that there never going to be FREE WILL ever again !!

    #4 We know from the text and Gen 4:4 , that Abel and Cain new what was required of them concerning what God wanted them to do to please God !!

    #5 The Gospel was for them to bring worship to God !!

    #6 Abel brought a LAMB and was accepted !!

    #7 But Cain brought the WORK of his HANDS and was not ACCEPTED , just as many do today by says the Water Baptism , and that REFUSE to call Jesus Lord as Rom 10:9 and 1 Cor 12:3 say is required , by the Holy Spirit !!

    #8 Adam is a picture of the Old creation unto DEATH !!

    #9 Cain is the PICTURE of the DYING WORKS PEOPLE !!

    #10 Christ is the PATTERN of a NEW CREATION !!

    dan p

    None of this is relevant to the thread topic, and no there are not two gospels. There never has been.
    Christ is the prototype of the heavenly man, but the goal from the moment Adam sinned was to seek God's kingdom.
    Progressive revelation has brought us to the understanding of how it is possible to enter the kingdom of God, but what you madists won't have is, that the message has always been about entering the kingdom of God. The moment Christ was born, the kingdom of God had come to man. And so if we now embrace him, we enter the kingdom of God.

    Mad inserts the idea of different gospels dependant on different dispensations, to fabricate a gospel where people can do as they please under the banner of perverted grace. Nope, there not different gospels, only one. Entering the kingdom of God is the objective of man since Adam, and it still is the same objective, but now after progressive revelations the way is fully known.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    None of this is relevant to the thread topic, and no there are not two gospels. There never has been.
    Christ is the prototype of the heavenly man, but the goal from the moment Adam sinned was to seek God's kingdom.
    Progressive revelation has brought us to the understanding of how it is possible to enter the kingdom of God, but what you madists won't have is, that the message has always been about entering the kingdom of God. The moment Christ was born, the kingdom of God had come to man. And so if we now embrace him, we enter the kingdom of God.

    Mad inserts the idea of different gospels dependant on different dispensations, to fabricate a gospel where people can do as they please under the banner of perverted grace. Nope, there not different gospels, only one. Entering the kingdom of God is the objective of man since Adam, and it still is the same objective, but now after progressive revelations the way is fully known.

    Hi and I say that there are at least 5 gospels that bring good NEWS !!

    And some gospels bring BAD NEWS !!

    Tell me with a verse where your ONE GOSPEL is found ??

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    ...

    Mad inserts the idea of different gospels dependant on different dispensations, to fabricate a gospel where people can do as they please under the banner of perverted grace. Nope, there not different gospels, only one. Entering the kingdom of God is the objective of man since Adam, and it still is the same objective, but now after progressive revelations the way is fully known.
    Sorry, but that is just complete ignorance on your part...as usual.

    There are now basically three versions of Mid-Acts out there.

    One of those two dying out, as its remaining adherents are from a prior generation.

    Many of them were still alive when I first found out there were people out there who held views similar to my own.

    I got to see many of them during their dealings with the opposition, first hand, as part of my profession back came with a great deal of travel to different parts of the U.S. and so on.

    But for three or four here and there, they were largely some of the most grace living and giving, patient and forgiving people one could ever have been fortunate to have known.

    Just wonderfully Godly people in the Lord you are spitting on the memory of.

    The same is true of various within the two other versions of Mid-Acts.

    You have arrived at your false-positive from your same old ignorance, Andy.

    Neither the gracelessnes and ever glorying and rationalizing in the glorying in the flesh of a few bad apples here and there, nor do their skewed views, does the whole of actual Mid-Acts make.

    Clearly, you did not go through those video studies I posted to you; though here you are, posting a video on this thread as your OP, desiring that others at least hear it out.

    Every one of the video studies I posted to you on this thread are not only from the Acts 9 Position (aka MAD or Mid-Acts Dispensationalism) I hold to more or less; but are based on Paul's very questions in...

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Quit lying about MADs. That is unbecoming of ANY professed "Believer."

    Yours is ever obviously as much your ignorance on the whole of a thing, as your equally obvious need for payback of fools on their same level.

    Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

    2 Corinthians 8:21 Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

    Better you begin to look at both personal and doctrinal issues from the lens that is Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

    Believe me, you'll then be a bit more...objective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Sorry, but that is just complete ignorance on your part...as usual.

    There are now basically three versions of Mid-Acts out there.

    One of those two dying out, as its remaining adherents are from a prior generation.

    Many of them were still alive when I first found out there were people out there who held views similar to my own.

    I got to see many of them during their dealings with the opposition, first hand, as part of my profession back came with a great deal of travel to different parts of the U.S. and so on.

    But for three or four here and there, they were largely some of the most grace living and giving, patient and forgiving people one could ever have been fortunate to have known.

    Just wonderfully Godly people in the Lord you are spitting on the memory of.

    The same is true of various within the two other versions of Mid-Acts.

    You have arrived at your false-positive from your same old ignorance, Andy.

    Neither the gracelessnes and ever glorying and rationalizing in the glorying in the flesh of a few bad apples here and there, nor do their skewed views, does the whole of actual Mid-Acts make.

    Clearly, you did not go through those video studies I posted to you; though here you are, posting a video on this thread as your OP, desiring that others at least hear it out.

    Every one of the video studies I posted to you on this thread are not only from the Acts 9 Position (aka MAD or Mid-Acts Dispensationalism) I hold to more or less; but are based on Paul's very questions in...

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Quit lying about MADs. That is unbecoming of ANY professed "Believer."

    Yours is ever obviously as much your ignorance on the whole of a thing, as your equally obvious need for payback of fools on their same level.

    Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

    2 Corinthians 8:21 Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

    Better you begin to look at both personal and doctrinal issues from the lens that is Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

    Believe me, you'll then be a bit more...objective.

    You're quite new here, but I posted some quotes from madists here years ago. Enjoy!

    Voltaire
    Andyc asks, doesnt faith in Christ include turning from sin. I say no.
    No need to turn from sin?


    Voltaire
    Andyc. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Based on that verse, are you claiming its impossible to get saved if you have no desire to be holy?
    STP
    Those who claim that "turning from sin" is a part of having faith in Christ are still sinning every single day. They haven't "turned from sin".
    So, turning from sin is not necessary?

    Lighthouse
    He repents me of my sin, and changes my mind. These are not things I can do on my own. None of us can.
    When we're sinning, God changes our mind and stops us from sinning?
    What if we don't want to stop sinning and change our mind?
    That's ok as well?

    Voltaire
    Ok andyc, so if someone knows that fornication is a sin and they want to be saved but dont want to stop fornicating with their live in girlfriend, God will not save him? The price that Christ paid on calvary was not sufficient to save someone who refuses to give up one sin?
    The fact that Paul tells us not to keep company with anyone called a brother, and who is a fornicator, this doesn't seem to matter?
    Jesus doesn't mind fornication, it's not that bad?

    JohnW
    he (andyc) perverts the gospel of Christ, conditioning justification upon his subjective "desire" to "turn from sin"
    Turning from sin is not a condition for salvation?


    JohnW
    No "fixin' up, committing your life...surrendering your life...exhibiting a subjective, emotional, genuine, sincere desire for change....turning from sin....stop committing sin.......blah blah blah"=
    No need to desire to turn from sin?

    Voltaire
    According to andy, you must desire to be free from sin in order to be saved and if you continue to sin willfully and unashamedly after justification, it is proof that you never had a genuine desire to be free from sin.
    You do not have to desire to be free from sin?
    And you can go on and sin willfully and unashamedly after you're saved, because it doesn't matter?

    andyc
    'If they are committing grievous sins, and feel no sense of shame in it, then they are not saved. They are only kiding themselves."-andyc


    JohnW
    Responce:
    Vol, Stp, myself, chickenman....have the righteousness of God in Christ. Our sin was imputed to the Lord Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, and He wasjudged in our stead, and all our sins were imputed to Him also, and the debt was paid. There is no sin/sins issue between a holy LORD God and us.
    God doesn't care about sin anymore, because it was all taken care of 2000 years ago?

    Voltaire
    There is something going on with andy and vladkhab. They seem to be very concerned that someone could trust in Christ and go on living exactly like they did before.
    Sinners can go on living exactly as they did before they were saved?

    andyc:
    "When you're agreeing with what Christ did for you, and you're understanding the rottenness of your condition, and you're asking for forgiveness and cleansing, and desire to receive the Holy Spirit to be a child of God, this is the only commitment required by God in order to receive salvation. You can't be in this frame of mind unless you desire to be forgiven. This is a repentant frame of mind."-andyc


    JohnW
    Response:
    More spin, and subjectivity, and focusing on you. . I refuse to ask God to do something He already took
    care of 2000 years ago.
    You don't even have to have a desire to be forgiven, or even be in a repentant frame of mind?

    Voltaire
    God asks godrulz why he should let him into heaven. Godrulz tells him that he accepted the free gift of his son. God says to him but would i have let you in here if you still wanted to run your own life. Godrulz tells him of course not. Your gift is not free in an absolute sense. I cant accept your free gift and live like i want to. In fact God, i wik be very angry at you if i come here and find some folks who did not stolivg for self. After all, i had to give up the good life in order to get here. And now i am disgusted to get here and find some people who had their cake and ate it too.
    There will be people in heaven who will be angry to learn that they could have had Christ and the world?


    JohnW
    Take your self righteous," genuinely... sincerely...desire..." "commitment" and stuff it. The LORD God needs nothing from you, will not justify you based upon your "intentions", your "commitment" your "sincerity", your "genuineness",
    Would Jesus tell us to stuff our commitment, and our sincere genuine desire to turn from sin?

    Chickenman
    Well...Peter taught that one had to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, and then he would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense, it was a kingdom requirement. We are baptized by the Spirit into Christ when we believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose to life. The gospel message to us doesn't include a REQUIREMENT to repent. However, repentance certainly has a place in Body doctrine. What a sad fool who wouldn't respond to the gift he's received by repenting of sin.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

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    How Can I Live A Victorious Christian Life?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-uNINDZukU&app=desktop

    THE NEW YOU!! - Now This is Really Living!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=018l90DJ6rI&app=desktop

    Shall We Continue In Sin That Grace May Abound?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IM8KmnXAhY&app=desktop

    Why Do I Fail If There Is Victory In Christ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZhiZGjjm7Y&app=desktop

    Rom. 5:6-8 towards ya, Andy - no matter how many times you ignore your having ignored these video studies on this very issue.

    You wanna comment to me - on - this - very - issue?

    Well then comment to me on the content of any one of those video studies - on - this - very - issue.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    How Can I Live A Victorious Christian Life?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-uNINDZukU&app=desktop

    THE NEW YOU!! - Now This is Really Living!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=018l90DJ6rI&app=desktop

    Shall We Continue In Sin That Grace May Abound?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IM8KmnXAhY&app=desktop

    Why Do I Fail If There Is Victory In Christ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZhiZGjjm7Y&app=desktop

    Rom. 5:6-8 towards ya, Andy - no matter how many times you ignore your having ignored these video studies on this very issue.

    You wanna comment to me - on - this - very - issue?

    Well then comment to me on the content of any one of those video studies - on - this - very - issue.

    Don't be silly.
    I posted one video, and pointed to the specific time to pay attention, which was a few minutes.
    You really think I'm going to sit and watch that lot?

    Start a thread on whatever you want to discuss.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Don't be silly.
    I posted one video, and pointed to the specific time to pay attention, which was a few minutes.
    You really think I'm going to sit and watch that lot?

    Start a thread on whatever you want to discuss.
    Geez you can be one-sided and obtuse.

    So be it.

    You posted misrepresentations - to which I responded with more than ample evidence beyond a mere soundbyte, that showed that you haven't a clue what you are talking about

    You come back with this absolute nonsense.

    Your own thread proves you both an incompetent and a willful misrepresenter of other's views, once more.

    I know I was more than fair with you.

    I leave you to your wilful self-deception til you are willing to be honest.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Rom. 5: 6-8.
    Last edited by Danoh; January 21st, 2018 at 07:38 PM.

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    So Sproul's disgraced son is a dispensationalist?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to musterion For Your Post:

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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    So Sproul's disgraced son is a dispensationalist?
    Actually, he'd be closer to a cross between someone who holds either to Progressive Dispensationalism, or to New Covenant Theology - both of which erroneously seek, and miserably fail, to somehow harmonize Reformed Theology with Dispensational Theology.

    https://www.ligonier.org/learn/artic...thing-old-new/

    In short, the kind of mis-fire in attempting to think a thing through, that a great deal of time invested in books supposedly based on Scripture, results in - the traditions of men such end up "reasoning" one thing or another through.

    In contrast to the old, ever relable Acts 17: 11, 12.

  14. #43
    Over 2500 post club andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Geez you can be one-sided and obtuse.

    So be it.

    You posted misrepresentations - to which I responded with more than ample evidence beyond a mere soundbyte, that showed that you haven't a clue what you are talking about

    You come back with this absolute nonsense.

    Your own thread proves you both an incompetent and a willful misrepresenter of other's views, once more.

    I know I was more than fair with you.

    I leave you to your wilful self-deception til you are willing to be honest.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Rom. 5: 6-8.
    Sorry but you never understood the thread. You didn't even manage to understand that Sproul wasn't talking about hyperdispensationalists.
    Your long thesis style posts that are mostly irrelevant to the thread topics, and laced with personal character evaluations get a bit tiresome, even for your own mad crew.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    So Sproul's disgraced son is a dispensationalist?
    Not the one in the video obviously.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Sorry but you never understood the thread. You didn't even manage to understand that Sproul wasn't talking about hyperdispensationalists.
    Your long thesis style posts that are mostly irrelevant to the thread topics, and laced with personal character evaluations get a bit tiresome, even for your own mad crew.
    Nope.

    I pointed out to northwye sometime ago on TOL, and more than once (and even did a thread on it) that the book by Gerstner (that Sproul mentions having written the Preface on), is a critique of Acts 2 Dispensationalism.

    What little Gerstner mentioned about Mid-Acts he confused with Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

    I'm more than aware of what Sproul was prattling on about.

    Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

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