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Thread: nice to meet you... again

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    nice to meet you... again

    Hi everyone,

    I look forward to getting to know you on TOL. I am an agnostic athiest (for lack of a better label) who is interested in the epistemology of belief.

    This is my second time on TOL as I used to have an account back when I was in college several years ago however I could not recall my old login details and no longer have access to that email address.

    It was some time ago in any case and a new start might be for the best since I'm sure my viewpoint has changed since then.

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    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Hi AMR,

    Good to see you again, thanks for the link, I'd like to ask a question if I may. (I have not read the full thread yet so I apologise if you have answered it there.

    If I am reading it correctly then when you say:
    Despite the claims of some believers with good intentions of defending the faith, who argue that faith is a "leap", I claim there are four reasons supporting that our faith involves knowledge and is compatible with reason.
    (emphasis mine)

    If I understand your post correctly then you say that knowledge is only a true and justified belief if you have God as an epistemological basis for knowledge and reason, yet this line seems to imply that faith is not in fact a leap but based on knowledge and reason. My question is if we cannot know something without God how can you say the "leap" of faith is based on knowledge if you are unable to justify knowledge until after the "leap" is taken?

    Also I promise this is a genuine question to help me understand your post, I'm not trying to start a debate in my own intro thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Hi AMR,

    Good to see you again, thanks for the link, I'd like to ask a question if I may. (I have not read the full thread yet so I apologise if you have answered it there.

    If I am reading it correctly then when you say:
    Despite the claims of some believers with good intentions of defending the faith, who argue that faith is a "leap", I claim there are four reasons supporting that our faith involves knowledge and is compatible with reason.
    (emphasis mine)

    If I understand your post correctly then you say that knowledge is only a true and justified belief if you have God as an epistemological basis for knowledge and reason, yet this line seems to imply that faith is not in fact a leap but based on knowledge and reason. My question is if we cannot know something without God how can you say the "leap" of faith is based on knowledge if you are unable to justify knowledge until after the "leap" is taken?

    Also I promise this is a genuine question to help me understand your post, I'm not trying to start a debate in my own intro thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ff4string View Post
    Hi everyone,
    Howdy do.

    I am an agnostic athiest
    That's an unwise choice.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Howdy do.
    Hi Tambora, Thank you and nice to meet you.

    That's an unwise choice.
    Why do you say that? and do you mean on these forums or in general?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Hi AMR,

    Sorry, I was sure I replied to you but perhaps it was not approved by a mod?

    Thank you for the link but I had questions if I may?

    Are you saying that knowledge is only true and justified belief if there is a god or that it's only true and justified belief if you (read: the person believing it) personally accept God as your epistemological basis for reason?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ff4string View Post
    Hi Tambora, Thank you and nice to meet you.



    Why do you say that? and do you mean on these forums or in general?
    In general.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    In general.
    And why do you say that? I could guess based on my interpenetration of the bible and common themes from other believers but I'd rather hear your actual thoughts than make assumptions if that's ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ff4string View Post
    And why do you say that? I could guess based on my interpretation of the bible and common themes from other believers but I'd rather hear your actual thoughts than make assumptions if that's ok.
    Sorry, I wasn't paying close enough attention to my auto-correct and I cannot yet edit my posts.

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    Truth - Some Properties

    Quote Originally Posted by ff4string View Post
    Hi AMR,

    Thank you for the link but I had questions if I may?

    Are you saying that knowledge is only true and justified belief if there is a god or that it's only true and justified belief if you (read: the person believing it) personally accept God as your epistemological basis for reason?
    Well, let's see how this works out. Then perhaps you can read the link I provided earlier.

    I assume we all will affirm that truth exists. Now suppose you claim, Truth does not exist. I will counter by asking whether the claim itself is true or false. If it is false, then truth exists; and if the claim is true, then truth exists.

    Truth must be immutable and eternal, for any denial of the eternity of truth turns out to be an affirmation of its eternity. In other words, it would be self-contradictory to deny the eternity of truth.

    Truth is mental, presupposing the existence of minds, which is to say, the object of knowledge is a proposition, a meaning, a significance; it is a thought. Moreover truth is superior to the human mind which is subjective and individualistic. Therefore, truth must transcend human reason; truth must be superior to any individual human mind as well as to the sum total of human minds.

    From this it follows that there must be a mind higher than the human mind in which truth resides. Accordingly, there must be an ontological ground for truth. But the ground of truth cannot be anything perishable or contingent. Since truth is eternal and immutable, it must exist in an eternal and immutable Mind. And since only God possesses these attributes, God must be truth. The truths or propositions that may be known are the eternal thoughts of God.

    Q.E.D.

    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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