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Thread: What is the appropriate level of giving for retired people?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Yes, that is how it would make sense

    Especially so, if your income before you decided to put some away for a retirement fund had already been tithed from.

    There is no need to tithe from money you have already tithed from, however, any increase from that fund could be tithed from
    Thank you.

    With the stock market climbing so quickly in the recent years, I think that it is something that we need to consider.

    Also, the benefit of giving appreciated stock rather than cash is a way to do more for the Kingdom of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Jesus didn't tithe.

    Paul didn't tithe.

    The Twelve didn't tithe.
    Prove that from scripture
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    I agree with much of what you wrote, but I do ask a question about the specifics.

    If I remember the story correctly, Abraham did not tithe of his goods. Didnít he tithe of the spoils captured in the rescue of Lot, mostly stolen goods, before returning the rest to their rightful owners?
    Abraham with his little army retrieved what was theirs.


    Did he keep some of the spoils of this warfare?

    The record does not indicate that. Genesis 14:11-24

    Abraham retrieved what he had a right to retrieve.

    Melchizedek blessed Abraham, then Abraham tithed.

    Abraham received then Abraham tithed.

    Until we receive, we have nothing to give.

    What we have received, we can give of.
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Abraham with his little army retrieved what was theirs.
    Indeed, a little army, for the gematria of Eliezer, (אליעזר, "El is my help"), is 318.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Abraham with his little army retrieved what was theirs.


    Did he keep some of the spoils of this warfare?

    The record does not indicate that. Genesis 14:11-24

    Abraham retrieved what he had a right to retrieve.

    Melchizedek blessed Abraham, then Abraham tithed.

    Abraham received then Abraham tithed.

    Until we receive, we have nothing to give.

    What we have received, we can give of.
    Yes, Abraham kept nothing for himself, and he also gave nothing of his own (unless you view that he owned the stolen goods that he had recaptured).

    Then the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, but take the goods for yourself." 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the Lord, God Most High, maker of heaven and earth, 23 that I would not take a thread or a sandal-thong or anything that is yours, so that you might not say, "I have made Abram rich.' 24 I will take nothing but what the young men have eaten, and the share of the men who went with me—Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre. Let them take their share."


    Back on the topic of the couple, do you think a tenth should be the default position? I view it as a floor.
    Last edited by 2003cobra; January 6th, 2018 at 03:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Indeed, a little army, for the gematria of Eliezer, (אליעזר, "El is my help"), is 318.
    Daqq, what is your opinion on the appropriate level of giving for the couple in post 3?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Daqq, what is your opinion on the appropriate level of giving for the couple in post 3?
    Yeah, I did not mean what I said to derail, but wanted to state it as the simple fact that it is, pertaining to what Oatmeal had said, because it concerns circumcision, (which was already brought up earlier up by someone else, and shot down as off-topic by you, and rightly so, (but now it is there for future reference if that topic comes up again and you allow it)).

    But as for mammon will you give some of your mammon to Elohim? Where in the Tanach or Old Testament does it say to give some of your mammon to a church or congregation? So I suppose it depends who you plan to give your mammon to, for there are good things you could do with your mammon, and bad things you could do with your mammon: but what about, "Sell all that you have and follow Messiah", do you suppose that statement only pertains to mammon? I suggest to you that it does not necessarily mean that but because the rich young man was only able to see it in that manner he was dejected and went away. In those times buying and selling was more like "going to market" and bartering: the fisherman would trade some fish for some wheat, flour, or maybe bread from the farmer, because each one had his own occupation. The fisherman did not have a farm and the farmer did not have a sea galley or fishing boat operation.

    The Master says to us all, (not just Laodicea), "I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye-salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

    How are you going to purchase gold tried in the fire from the Master? What do you really have that is critical and meaningful in the kingdom of Elohim? Will he accept your mammon? or the persons of men? You have some doctrines that are dear to you; but if they do not agree with the Word, and yet you do not trade them in for the true pure gold, then even what you think to have will be taken from you in the long run, (it is surely the same for us all). Therefore I say, trade off all that you have and take up your stake and follow the Word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    My opening post is clear that I know we arenít under the law.



    I was hoping for something more quantitative, but if that is all you have, then that is all you have.

    Thanks for your input.
    No, you're trying to get him to go running back to the law like you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Daqq, what is your opinion on the appropriate level of giving for the couple in post 3?
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    No, you're trying to get him to go running back to the law like you do.
    You see what I meant Cobra?
    That other topic probably is not going to remain buried for long.
    But I think I will bow out for a while having said what I have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    The amount we have and the amount by which God has prospered us has no bearing?

    I am reminded of this:
    1 Corinthians 16:1-3New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    The Collection for the Saints
    16 Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave to the churches of Galatia. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem.

    In the KJV:
    1 Corinthians 16:1-3King James Version (KJV)

    16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

    2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

    3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
    This was a SPECIFIC collection to help a SPECIFIC group of people at a SPECIFIC time for a SPECIFIC need.

    Your question seemed to be about GENERAL giving.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    So if God has prospered the couple with a growth of $200,000 in their stock accounts, giving them extra, is the amount of the prospering relevant?

    I am also reminded of the obligation not to give everything away but to plan for the needs of family:

    1 Timothy 5:7-9New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    7 Give these commands as well, so that they may be above reproach. 8 And whoever does not provide for relatives, and especially for family members, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
    I did NOT says that you should not take OTHER things into account when you PURPOSE IN YOUR HEART what to give freely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    This was a SPECIFIC collection to help a SPECIFIC group of people at a SPECIFIC time for a SPECIFIC need.

    Your question seemed to be about GENERAL giving.


    I did NOT says that you should not take OTHER things into account when you PURPOSE IN YOUR HEART what to give freely.
    I know there were many things that you did not say. Would you like to say something about the appropriate level of giving for the couple in post 3?

    It is fine if you have no opinion; I just can’t tell that this is the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Yeah, I did not mean what I said to derail, but wanted to state it as the simple fact that it is, pertaining to what Oatmeal had said, because it concerns circumcision, (which was already brought up earlier up by someone else, and shot down as off-topic by you, and rightly so, (but now it is there for future reference if that topic comes up again and you allow it)).

    But as for mammon will you give some of your mammon to Elohim? Where in the Tanach or Old Testament does it say to give some of your mammon to a church or congregation? So I suppose it depends who you plan to give your mammon to, for there are good things you could do with your mammon, and bad things you could do with your mammon: but what about, "Sell all that you have and follow Messiah", do you suppose that statement only pertains to mammon? I suggest to you that it does not necessarily mean that but because the rich young man was only able to see it in that manner he was dejected and went away. In those times buying and selling was more like "going to market" and bartering: the fisherman would trade some fish for some wheat, flour, or maybe bread from the farmer, because each one had his own occupation. The fisherman did not have a farm and the farmer did not have a sea galley or fishing boat operation.

    The Master says to us all, (not just Laodicea), "I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye-salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

    How are you going to purchase gold tried in the fire from the Master? What do you really have that is critical and meaningful in the kingdom of Elohim? Will he accept your mammon? or the persons of men? You have some doctrines that are dear to you; but if they do not agree with the Word, and yet you do not trade them in for the true pure gold, then even what you think to have will be taken from you in the long run, (it is surely the same for us all). Therefore I say, trade off all that you have and take up your stake and follow the Word.
    Daqq, does this mean that you donít believe in giving to a local church? Or to the poor?

    I canít see any comments in your post as to what you think might be an appropriate giving range for the hypothetical couple that I described in post 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    No, you're trying to get him to go running back to the law like you do.
    Do you have an opinion on the appropriate level of giving for the hypothetical couple in post 3?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Well, I donít know if that is true or not.
    Livestock and agricultural products were tithed.

    Jesus was a craftsman in the building trades.

    Paul was a tentmaker.

    Others were fishermen, none were farmers or ranchers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Thank you for your post, and I agree.

    That raises the question: tithing on what? Tithing is typically applied to income received, and that may miss some important things.

    Maybe an example will help:
    Suppose a retired couple has a retirement income from pensions of $30000/year and investment income from stocks of $20000/year for a total income of $50000/year.

    A tithe on that would be $5000/year.

    However, to generate $20000/year in dividends would require $1,000,000 in investments.

    The stock market rose nearly 20%, meaning the increase in the coupleís stock account would have increased $200,000 in 2017. Should that increase be considered?
    I will give my opinion, and I am quick to note that it is not a teaching of scripture. It is just a personal opinion informed by various scriptures.

    I think a good approach is to look at:
    1) Income for the year,
    2) Increase in net worth from year to year, and
    3) Future expectations and projections of income and needs
    to estimate what can be given while still caring for family.

    If that estimate of what can be given comes out to something more than 10% of income or the increase in net worth, then it seems appropriate ó and this should all be considered prayerfully and with a heart receptive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

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