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Thread: God's attitude towards science and progress

  1. #76
    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wick Stick View Post
    Likewise, I find that none of God's commands are arbitrary, or on-a-whim. What is commanded is consistently commanded in accordance with what is good, what is profitable. I may not understand why. God may not explain why. I may need a few other lessons before I can even begin to understand why.

    But, rest assured - it is not arbitrary; there is a reason. God is a God of Order.
    We got onto this topic when I said, mankind has no rights - and I still say it.
    And whatever God decides to do IS right by definition AND because it's His universe, and His plan, and it is unfolding the way He wants it to unfold.

    If Jesus were in control, it would unfold another way, and if Jesus were sovereign, the ultimate say in the universe, then that would be what is right, by definition.

    And if iouae was in control and sovereign of this universe, and if I had created everything in it and sustained it, what I said would go, and would be right, by definition.

    There is no such concept as "good" or "right" except as is decreed by the one with total control.

    As it so happens, I don't have a problem with how God does things. That is why I am His slave (doulas) and I have zero rights as such. I just continually crave His grace and am thankful to have a part in His long term plan.

    And if I did not like the only game in town, I could go to hell.

  2. #77
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Clete, you are like a toddler who cannot keep up with a big boy conversation, so you just throw a tantrum.
    If you have an ignore list, then you have a problem, other than very bad manners for a Christian.
    The only problem I have is with people who either waste my time or pretend to be Christians while proclaiming themselves wiser than God. You do both.

    I won't be responding to you now except to ridicule and to point out your blasphemy. It is the only thing left with any hope of producing good fruit.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  4. #78
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    We got onto this topic when I said, mankind has no rights - and I still say it.
    And whatever God decides to do IS right by definition AND because it's His universe, and His plan, and it is unfolding the way He wants it to unfold.

    If Jesus were in control, it would unfold another way, and if Jesus were sovereign, the ultimate say in the universe, then that would be what is right, by definition.

    And if iouae was in control and sovereign of this universe, and if I had created everything in it and sustained it, what I said would go, and would be right, by definition.

    There is no such concept as "good" or "right" except as is decreed by the one with total control.

    As it so happens, I don't have a problem with how God does things. That is why I am His slave (doulas) and I have zero rights as such. I just continually crave His grace and am thankful to have a part in His long term plan.

    And if I did not like the only game in town, I could go to hell.
    This entire post from beginning to end is blasphemy. You worship an amoral figment of your imagination.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  6. #79
    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This entire post from beginning to end is blasphemy. You worship an amoral figment of your imagination.
    Oh shush.

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    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The only problem I have is with people who either waste my time or pretend to be Christians while proclaiming themselves wiser than God. You do both.

    I won't be responding to you now except to ridicule and to point out your blasphemy. It is the only thing left with any hope of producing good fruit.
    Why don't you try something new - like formulating a well thought out argument without name calling?

  8. #81
    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    We got onto this topic when I said, mankind has no rights - and I still say it.
    And whatever God decides to do IS right by definition AND because it's His universe, and His plan, and it is unfolding the way He wants it to unfold.

    If Jesus were in control, it would unfold another way, and if Jesus were sovereign, the ultimate say in the universe, then that would be what is right, by definition.

    And if iouae was in control and sovereign of this universe, and if I had created everything in it and sustained it, what I said would go, and would be right, by definition.

    There is no such concept as "good" or "right" except as is decreed by the one with total control.

    As it so happens, I don't have a problem with how God does things. That is why I am His slave (doulas) and I have zero rights as such. I just continually crave His grace and am thankful to have a part in His long term plan.

    And if I did not like the only game in town, I could go to hell.
    I challenge anyone on this forum to define right and wrong without it eventually turning out that whatever God says is right IS right, and whatever God says is wrong IS wrong.

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I challenge anyone on this forum to define right and wrong without it eventually turning out that whatever God says is right IS right, and whatever God says is wrong IS wrong.
    Here is your challenge, answered, and without right and wrong being arbitrarily decided upon by God.

    https://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?t=47024

    A Christian Answer to the Euthyphro Dilemma.

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    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Here is your challenge, answered, and without right and wrong being arbitrarily decided upon by God.

    https://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?t=47024

    A Christian Answer to the Euthyphro Dilemma.
    There never was a dilemma, and I already explained this supposed dilemma.

    The pages and pages of confused reasoning you point to, I don't plan to wade through.

    Put the link's arguments in your own words in one or two sentences and I would be happy to discuss it.

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    There never was a dilemma, and I already explained this supposed dilemma.

    The pages and pages of confused reasoning you point to, I don't plan to wade through.

    Put the link's arguments in your own words in one or two sentences and I would be happy to discuss it.
    Just the first post. Not the entire thread.

    I'm sure if you give it a read, you'll find it very informative, and maybe even learn something.

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    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Just the first post. Not the entire thread.

    I'm sure if you give it a read, you'll find it very informative, and maybe even learn something.
    It's rubbish. I read the original Socrates dialogue, and have read almost all the dialogues of Socrates which Plato wrote. It was a dilemma with multiple gods, not so with One. Find my post above explaining that.

    You explain what the link says if you think otherwise.

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    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I challenge anyone on this forum to define right and wrong without it eventually turning out that whatever God says is right IS right, and whatever God says is wrong IS wrong.
    Well, I'm clearly just a glutton for punishment! Here goes nothing....


    That has been done several times. Maybe not on this thread but I've started a whole thread on the exact topic.

    On what basis do you make the claim that right and wrong are arbitrarily determined by God's fiat command/action?

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Well, I'm clearly just a glutton for punishment! Here goes nothing....


    That has been done several times. Maybe not on this thread but I've started a whole thread on the exact topic.

    On what basis do you make the claim that right and wrong are arbitrarily determined by God's fiat command/action?
    Because without God to tell us what right and wrong is, there is no right and wrong in nature.

    Paul says exactly the same agreeing with me.

    Rom 7:7
    What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    And clearly, without God giving us the law, there is no sin, no right and wrong.

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    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Because without God to tell us what right and wrong is, there is no right and wrong in nature.

    Paul says exactly the same agreeing with me.

    Rom 7:7
    What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    And clearly, without God giving us the law, there is no sin, no right and wrong.
    To speed this debate along, if I were Clete, I would argue that sin always existed because good and bad always exist. The law only points this out to us.

    To which I would respond, read the next verse ...
    Rom 7:8
    But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

    It does not say "without the law sin was hidden". It says, without the law sin was dead, meaning, does not exist.

    Thus if sin did not exist, good and bad did not exist until God brought it into existence by writing the law.
    Check mate.

  19. #89
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Because without God to tell us what right and wrong is, there is no right and wrong in nature.
    If it were true, it would qualify as a reason why you might not know what right and wrong are, but your knowledge of a thing doesn't speak to its existence.

    What about before anyone other than God existed; was God good then or did He have to wait to tell someone before He became good? Or is it that you do not believe that God is good?

    Paul says exactly the same agreeing with me.

    Rom 7:7
    What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    And clearly, without God giving us the law, there is no sin, no right and wrong.
    You are completely removing that passage from its context. You don't get to pull random sentences from the bible and apply them in any way you want depending on what you happen to be discussing at the time, especially when Paul states the opposite of your point in the first chapter of the book you are quoting.

    But I'm not even going to debate that with you. I'll even cede the point for the sake of argument. As I stated already, your (or Paul's) ignorance of right and wrong does not mean that right and wrong didn't exist prior to his knowledge of it. Further, Paul's statement says NOTHING at all about right and wrong being arbitrarily determined by God's fiat command/action.

    So I ask you again...

    On what basis do you make the claim that right and wrong are arbitrarily determined by God's fiat command/action?


    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  21. #90
    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    If it were true, it would qualify as a reason why you might not know what right and wrong are, but your knowledge of a thing doesn't speak to its existence.

    What about before anyone other than God existed. Was God good then or did He have to wait to tell someone before He became good? Or is it that you do not believe that God is good?
    Before anyone else existed, God went about being God.

    When He wanted to bring other beings into existence, He wanted them to be like Him. Thus he made rules telling others how to be like Him. Like Him = good. Not like Him = bad.

    Thus proving my point again, that God does not even have to think about or define good or evil, because God just went about being Himself. He then defined being like Him as good, and only formalised it as rules, when he created the angels and man.

    You are completely removing that passage from its context. You don't get to pull random sentences from the bible and apply them in any way you want depending on what you happen to be discussing at the time, especially when Paul states the opposite of your point in the first chapter of the book your are quoting.
    Like what? If you cannot show it, then it does not exist.

    But I'm not even going to debate that with you. I'll even cede the point for the sake of argument. As I stated already, your (or Paul's) ignorance of right and wrong does not mean that right and wrong didn't exist prior to his knowledge of it. Further, Paul's statement says NOTHING at all about right and wrong being arbitrarily determined by God's fiat command/action.
    But it does. Rom 7:8
    For without the law sin was dead.

    If sin was dead, it did not exist. Law brings good and bad into existence. God brings law into existence.

    So I ask you again...

    On what basis do you make the claim that right and wrong are arbitrarily determined by God's fiat command/action?
    My point has been proved.

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