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Thread: God's attitude towards science and progress

  1. #31
    TOL Subscriber patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    Don't you think humans were suffering much more before the advent of science and technology?
    Nope.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


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    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  2. #32
    Over 5000 post club 6days's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iouae
    Quote Originally Posted by 6days
    The dispersion was due to man's disobedience... nothing to do with God not wanting progress
    Then explain why God said...Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    Verse 4 tells us the the people built a tower to honor themselves, not God. The whole idea of this tower, was a contradiction to God's command in Gen. 9:1 to fill the earth. The people thought a tower and city would keep them from scattering over the earth.

    It is easy to understand from God's Word why there are so many distinct people groups and languages around the world.

    Iouae... The notion that God scattered the people because He doesn't like progress is absurd. But, this idea fits with your heretical beliefs of a God who makes mistakes. The God of the Bible is 'perfect in all His ways'.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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  4. #33
    Over 2000 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Verse 4 tells us the the people built a tower to honor themselves, not God. The whole idea of this tower, was a contradiction to God's command in Gen. 9:1 to fill the earth. The people thought a tower and city would keep them from scattering over the earth.

    It is easy to understand from God's Word why there are so many distinct people groups and languages around the world.

    Iouae... The notion that God scattered the people because He doesn't like progress is absurd. But, this idea fits with your heretical beliefs of a God who makes mistakes. The God of the Bible is 'perfect in all His ways'.
    6days, I don't see a reply to what I asked, which was to explain "and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

    This sounds like today where language barriers are removed and knowledge is increased, and now we can do anything through progress due to science. Like Babel, the whole world can talk together.

    Thanks

  5. #34
    Over 2000 post club iouae's Avatar
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    User Name asked "Don't you think humans were suffering much more before the advent of science and technology?"

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Nope.
    Ahh, the good old days before antibiotics and anaesthetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    User Name asked "Don't you think humans were suffering much more before the advent of science and technology?"



    Ahh, the good old days before antibiotics and anaesthetics.
    Yep, the Middle Ages. Disease, no indoor plumbing, no central heating systems, eating that maggoty meat was a treat (an extra source of protein).

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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    Yep, the Middle Ages. Disease, no indoor plumbing, no central heating systems, eating that maggoty meat was a treat (an extra source of protein).
    Yes, and if you thought out of the box, you were a witch/wizard.

    Here is a graph of life expectancy over the last millennium.


  10. #37
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I'm gonna let @Clete deal with this section. It's blasphemous, and He was just dealing with someone else who was saying the same.

    @Clete, if you could?
    The accusation is born out of their complete ignorance of the context. The real problem is that they aren't interested in discussing the context. They think that the context is limited to the chapter and book that the passage is found in. They give no thought at all about the overall big picture issues that God is dealing with and what He is doing and why He is doing it. An understanding of which requires an understanding of the bible well beyond a single chapter or even a single book in the Old Testament.

    They really aren't even equipped to discuss it, actually. Any attempt to explain what is going on gets quite far into the theological weeds rather quickly and their eyes glaze over and they just shut down their minds. It's like trying to describe the sunset to a man who's been blind from birth. They just don't have the required conceptual tools with which to deal with the subject matter. It would be feeding meat to a suckling baby. Not that it's always theologically complicated. Sometimes its just a matter of translation or some other rather trivial matter like that but, in my experience, they're even less willing to accept arguments of that type than they are arguments of a more theologically complex nature.

    Also, it isn't just the text that you'd be dealing with. People who can read any passage of the bible and get the idea that God is unjust will undoubtedly have a list of misconceptions about God and about Christianity as long as your leg, all of which contribute to their inability to see and understand any explanation that might be offered. It would be like wanting to build a house for someone where a field of boulders currently exists and where the land owner likes his boulders and doesn't want them moved.

    The bottom line is that they aren't interested in an explanation. They are actively and aggressively hostile toward God. Any discussion of such things only enables their blasphemy further. I recommend dropping it until such time as they've demonstrated that they have the interest and the intellectual maturity to discuss it with some real intellectually honesty, humility and respect. Just don't hold your breath waiting on that to ever happen.

    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; December 30th, 2017 at 02:51 PM.
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  12. #38
    Over 2000 post club iouae's Avatar
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    I had written "Good. Or if God tells Israel to murder the locals, that makes even murder good.

    God is not obliged to be consistent either. The Canaanites had no rights to Palestine because they were there first. God just ordered their genocide."

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The accusation is born out of their complete ignorance of the context. The real problem is that they aren't interested in discussing the context. They think that the context is limited to the chapter and book that the passage is found in. They give no thought at all about the overall big picture issues that God dealing with and what He is doing and why He is doing it. An understanding of which requires an understanding of the bible well beyond a single chapter or even a single book in the Old Testament.

    They really aren't even equipped to discuss it, actually. Any attempt to explain what is going on gets quite far into the theological weeds rather quickly and they're eyes glaze over and they just shut down their minds. It's like trying to describe the sunset to a man who's been blind from birth. They just don't have the required conceptual tools with which to deal with the subject matter. It would be feeding meat to a suckling baby. Not that it's always theologically complicated. Sometimes its just a matter of translation or some other rather trivial matter like that but, in my experience, they're even less willing to accept arguments of that type than they are arguments of a more theologically complex nature.

    Also, it isn't just the text that you'd be dealing with. People who can read any passage of the bible and get the idea that God is unjust will undoubtedly have a list of misconceptions about God and about Christianity as long as your leg, all of which contribute to their inability to see and understand any explanation that might be offered. It would be like wanting to build a house for someone where a field of boulders currently exists and where the land owner likes his boulders and doesn't want them moved.

    The bottom line is that they aren't interested in an explanation. They are actively and aggressively hostile toward God. Any discussion of such things only enables their blasphemy further. I recommend dropping it until such time as they've demonstrated that they have the interest and the intellectual maturity to discuss it with some real intellectually honesty, humility and respect. Just don't hold your breath waiting on that to ever happen.

    Clete
    I hardly know you Clete, but you seem to have an intimate knowledge of me. Thank you for that.

    I am just disappointed that you did not address what I wrote, to try to enlighten me.

  13. #39
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I had written "Good. Or if God tells Israel to murder the locals, that makes even murder good.

    God is not obliged to be consistent either. The Canaanites had no rights to Palestine because they were there first. God just ordered their genocide."



    I hardly know you Clete, but you seem to have an intimate knowledge of me. Thank you for that.

    I am just disappointed that you did not address what I wrote, to try to enlighten me.
    I have you on ignore. I have no idea what you wrote. I don't remember why I put you on ignore but I'd bet its for a half way descent reason.

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a hint...

    You have no right, before God, to your physical life.
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  15. #40
    Over 2000 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I have you on ignore. I have no idea what you wrote. I don't remember why I put you on ignore but I'd bet its for a half way descent reason.

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a hint...

    You have no right, before God, to your physical life.
    I agree with you. I was the one saying we have no rights, not to physical life, not to eternal life, not even to a pleasant life. Its all God's grace that we enjoy anything.

  16. #41
    Over 2000 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Let's look at the modern move away from human power, to machine power.

    In all of ancient time, slavery was a common practice. That is because they did not have electric or gas powered machines to do the heavy lifting. They did not have tanks and planes.

    We see Israel as slaves in Egypt, and the world around considered this normal.

    God brings Israel out of Egypt. And here God has a chance to completely rewrite the laws as He wants them.
    So God takes Israel to Mt. Sinai and gives them the 10C. Now the 10C are not rights, they are obligations. Just like which side of the road to travel on is not a right, what is the speed limit is, is not a right, so the 10C are there to limit what you may think is your right to drive on any side of the road at any speed.

    Then God gives Moses the other 613 written laws.
    Does God outlaw slavery? No!

    What we would consider a most basic right, the right not to be "owned" by another, God does not outlaw. Instead He regulates it. And women were in those days treated like goods, handed down from father to husband. We still see this today when brides walk down the aisle and are given away by their fathers. This is a leftover from when women were treated like possessions, not people with equal rights to men.

    And the Bible is full of this, even in the New Testament, where even there, one can not find the command that all Christian slave owners free their slaves. Read the book of Philemon, where Paul encourages Philemon to take his slave back and treat this runaway slave well.

    Thus, we live in a modern world where slavery is frowned upon, and all have rights.
    It was partially the invention of energy sources like electricity and gas which made it much easier to have a machine working than a slave working. One machine can do the work of thousands of slaves. Every American today uses between 200 and 8000 slave equivalents worth of energy.
    See http://energyskeptic.com/2014/energy-slaves/

  17. #42
    Over 5000 post club 6days's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    6days, I don't see a reply to what I asked, which was to explain "and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."
    This sounds like today where language barriers are removed and knowledge is increased, and now we can do anything through progress due to science. Like Babel, the whole world can talk together.
    Thanks
    Iouae... You seem determined to bring God down to a Being who is less than an omnipotent, omniscient Creator. God wasn't, and isn't afraid of progress and science. In fact, modern science is rooted in a literal understanding of the Bible...a God who created an orderly, logical creation and wanted us to use science to discover the world around us. Science is like another avenue of worship as we see our Creator in the majesty and sophistication of His creation.

    God wasn't afraid of the people making clay bricks and building a tower in 4200BC..... He isn't afraid of people building sophisticated towers in 2018. God however had righteous anger that the people were uniting in rebellion against Him, and disobeying His instructions. Nimrod may have been the leader of the 'one world government' at Babel. God ended that rebellion with the dispersion. (It has nothing to do with a anti-science god)
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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  19. #43
    Over 2000 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Iouae... You seem determined to bring God down to a Being who is less than an omnipotent, omniscient Creator. God wasn't, and isn't afraid of progress and science. In fact, modern science is rooted in a literal understanding of the Bible...a God who created an orderly, logical creation and wanted us to use science to discover the world around us. Science is like another avenue of worship as we see our Creator in the majesty and sophistication of His creation.

    God wasn't afraid of the people making clay bricks and building a tower in 4200BC..... He isn't afraid of people building sophisticated towers in 2018. God however had righteous anger that the people were uniting in rebellion against Him, and disobeying His instructions. Nimrod may have been the leader of the 'one world government' at Babel. God ended that rebellion with the dispersion. (It has nothing to do with a anti-science god)
    Thanks for that 6days, but I still don't see an explanation for "and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

    In the last few hundred years we have gone from "making clay bricks and building a tower" or skyscrapers, to electricity and nuclear weapons. What was stopping them do the same back then?

  20. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Thanks for that 6days, but I still don't see an explanation for "and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

    In the last few hundred years we have gone from "making clay bricks and building a tower" or skyscrapers, to electricity and nuclear weapons. What was stopping them do the same back then?
    You were answered... Maybe it wasn't the answer you wanted.

    And now..... off to worship our Creator with 'family'.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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  22. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    You were answered... Maybe it wasn't the answer you wanted.

    And now..... off to worship our Creator with 'family'.
    Have a good time

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