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Thread: God's attitude towards science and progress

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I like science and progress, so already I am biased.

    But my opinion is that God is not too crazy about human progress. The reason is, IMO obvious. When humans make progress, they make better weapons, all the better to destroy themselves. And God's attitude is "Thou shalt not kill".

    So we see no attempt by God to speed up progress. Jesus did not come to earth and teach us electricity.

    Also, the arrow of progress is in one direction - it tends to change human culture in one direction. For example, today, humans walk around stooped, looking at their cellphones.

    At Babel, one gets the idea that God scattered the nations to deliberately slow down progress.
    Gen 11:6
    And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    Unchecked Copy Box Gen 11:7
    Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    Nukes, pollution, global warming, species and habitat loss, drones - these are a result of progress.
    Medicine, more and better crops, ability to communicate, the joy of knowledge - these are a result of progress.

    We educate all children, teaching them science. I would rather NOT teach someone science if I knew they would abuse that knowledge. I would rather not teach everyone how to detonate a bomb from a distance.
    I said
    The core of Christianity is contentment. No science, no progress.
    Science--Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil

    [1Ti 6:20 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
    I Jn 3:11-12
    11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,
    12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.
    John 8:43-44
    43 "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
    44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
    Matt 23:23-36
    23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
    24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
    25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
    26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
    27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
    28 "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
    29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
    30 "and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'
    31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
    32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt.
    33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
    34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
    35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
    36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
    Matt 23:15-22
    15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
    16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
    17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
    18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
    19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
    20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
    21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
    22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
    (NKJ)



    Gen 2:8-9
    8 The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.
    9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    (NKJ)

    Gen 2:16-17
    16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
    17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
    (NKJ)

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    If the video said what you said above, I would have no problem with it.



    There is no branch of science inherently bad. All science in bad hands can be turned to evil.

    Nukes were invented in 1945 and not 100 years has passed. God retarded human progress because, given a few more decades or centuries, mankind would start a nuclear war, and that would be a mass extinction. God saw this starting at Babel, and scattered mankind to delay the end times. The end times started when we invented things like nukes which could end us.

    The video was nicely made, and I could imagine a church audience sitting there and agreeing with what was said, because church audiences almost invariably agree with what comes from the pulpit. I personally did not like its anti-science message behind the slick presentation.
    You should watch some of the A.I. videos I posted in the Conspiracy thread, that's the kind of science and technology that will wipe us out and allow satan to enter the world physically. AI combined with quantum physics and mechanics will be unimaginable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    I said
    The core of Christianity is contentment.
    Yes

    No science, no progress.
    Yes

    Science--Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil
    No.

    Adam and Eve were no closer to science and technology after eating the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. All that happened is that instead of knowing only good (experiencing good) they knew evil (experienced bad) as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    You should watch some of the A.I. videos I posted in the Conspiracy thread, that's the kind of science and technology that will wipe us out and allow satan to enter the world physically. AI combined with quantum physics and mechanics will be unimaginable.
    I think AI is fantastic and driverless cars are an example of progress in AI.

    Without seeing your videos, AI, like quantum physics, is a new and exciting and wonderful addition to science.

    The problem arises when a drone is programmed to kill anything which moves. But the problem still lies with humans abusing AI.

    Science and technology are neutral, just like iron. Iron can be forged into guns or plows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I think AI is fantastic and driverless cars are an example of progress in AI.

    Without seeing your videos, AI, like quantum physics, is a new and exciting and wonderful addition to science.

    The problem arises when a drone is programmed to kill anything which moves. But the problem still lies with humans abusing AI.

    Science and technology are neutral, just like iron. Iron can be forged into guns or plows.
    That's the mindset they count on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    That's the mindset they count on.
    How machines learn ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9OHn5ZF4Uo

    "10 Examples of Artificial Intelligence You’re Using in Daily Life"

    https://beebom.com/examples-of-artificial-intelligence/

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Our idea of fun and progress is that every man sit on his Apple and Blueberry. God's idea for the Millennium is that we sit under our vine and fig tree.

    Mic 4:3
    And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    Unchecked Copy Box Mic 4:4
    But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

    God put Adam and Eve in Eden to garden. I am not disagreeing with you but God feels that righteousness will make WHATEVER type of technological society live in peace and joy.



    It's only in the last few hundred years that progress has occurred, mostly driven by God-fearing, Reformation driven, religious scientists like Newton. You don't know if progress was God driven eg. Gutenberg invented printing so the Bible could get into laymen's hands, so the true Gopel could be preached in all the world.



    God gave you no rights, not even to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not even the best person has the right to anything. The Gospel message is that humans have no rights, salvation is by grace. Every pleasant second you spend on earth is by grace and chance - chance that you were not born in Yemen for instance.
    And this is where you are wrong.

    Thou shall not steal = right to property
    Thou shall not murder = right to life
    Thou shall not bear false witness = right to a fair trial

    Need I go on?

    Completely wrong. Do you think a fish, frog, bird, fruit fly has a right to anything? They die as time and chance turn them into the lowest part of the food chain. I take it you will not argue that humans are different and God owes them something.
    God gave the laws (such as the ones I gave above) to man. He didn't give them to animals.

    Of course animals don't have rights, except to be hunted, killed, cooked, and eaten.

    Man has rights, because we are not animals, but persons. When a man commits murder, God says that the government should execute him swiftly and painfully, to deter other criminals from doing the same. Same with kidnapping. Same with other capital crimes.

    The criminal, when he commits a capital crime (or when he has repeatedly committed a lesser crime), gives up his right to life, by showing that he is not willing to contribute to society in a positive way.

    That is a religious argument you make. And it is true. In this respect humans differ from animals in that they come with rules like marry one woman, don't kill/murder, don't lie etc. These too are religious rules. Animals don't live by rules because, as a rule, they don't need years of teaching and don't have language.



    That is assuming morality, assuming a religious culture. Otherwise the most logical thing to do might be to wipe out all opposition, and be the fittest one and the survivor. So you are arguing for religion.
    I'm arguing that regardless of religion or no religion, God exists, and His standard is the only righteous standard.

    Good. Or if God tells Israel to murder the locals, that makes even murder good.

    God is not obliged to be consistent either. The Canaanites had no rights to Palestine because they were there first. God just ordered their genocide.
    I'm gonna let @Clete deal with this section. It's blasphemous, and He was just dealing with someone else who was saying the same.

    @Clete, if you could?

    But, for His people, He did lay down laws. Laws only make sense from a religious worldview. Otherwise, human law may make it right to murder anyone different. Maybe in ancient cultures this is the reception all strangers got. They were invited to dinner, and they WERE the dinner.

    I must have missed that verse.
    My statement was about your comment about God not speeding up progress.

    Until you explain it, no other explanation exists.
    Not really, but I doubt I'll convince you otherwise.

    Check out "The Plot" by Pastor Enyart. And his Genesis Bible studies. That has all the information on Babel and the related topics.

    Economy, money, business, education, war - you name any human activity, and you will find the pagans got to it first, such as at Sumer or Egypt. So we could argue that science and all human activity has its origins in paganism. But I refuse to say that this makes economy, money, science, education, metalwork etc. bad.

    Science and progress in the hands of good people is good. Science, money, metal, technology in the wrong hands is bad. That's my position.
    Iouae, I asked a question, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't avoid it:

    How does an economy, money, etc, work? Do you know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae
    But my opinion is that God is not too crazy about human progress.
    I suspect you would be wrong. Progress / science helps alleviate a lot of suffering in our world through medicine. Science helps feed billions through agricultural innovation. Science helps devize technologies to make life more enjoyable... and to help spread the Gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by iouae
    The reason is, IMO obvious. When humans make progress, they make better weapons...
    God hates evil... not science.

    Quote Originally Posted by iouae
    At Babel, one gets the idea that God scattered the nations to deliberately slow down progress.
    Gen 11:6
    The dispersion was due to man's disobedience... nothing to do with God not wanting progress.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Iouae, I asked a question, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't avoid it:

    How does an economy, money, etc, work? Do you know?
    Sorry JudgeRightly, I must have missed that question.

    There are some things which are fun to do, so you do them yourself.
    Then there are other things which are not fun to do, so you ask someone to do them for you.
    But he does not consider them fun either, so you have to give him something for his time.
    You could do some of the things he does not consider fun - for him, and be even.
    But barter is cumbersome.
    So they invented money.
    The two of you agree on a certain amount of money for his time - much more convenient.
    And he agrees with someone else to get them do the things he does not want to do - for a price.

    I am no economist, but that just about summarises it for me.

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    I had written "God gave you no rights, not even to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not even the best person has the right to anything. The Gospel message is that humans have no rights, salvation is by grace. Every pleasant second you spend on earth is by grace and chance - chance that you were not born in Yemen for instance."

    To which you replied...

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    And this is where you are wrong.

    Thou shall not steal = right to property
    Thou shall not murder = right to life
    Thou shall not bear false witness = right to a fair trial

    Need I go on?

    God gave the laws (such as the ones I gave above) to man. He didn't give them to animals.

    Of course animals don't have rights, except to be hunted, killed, cooked, and eaten.

    Man has rights, because we are not animals, but persons. When a man commits murder, God says that the government should execute him swiftly and painfully, to deter other criminals from doing the same. Same with kidnapping. Same with other capital crimes.

    The criminal, when he commits a capital crime (or when he has repeatedly committed a lesser crime), gives up his right to life, by showing that he is not willing to contribute to society in a positive way.



    I'm arguing that regardless of religion or no religion, God exists, and His standard is the only righteous standard.
    Every society has laws and "rights" which are man made. In Saudi Arabia, women did not have the right to drive till recently.

    This is a perfect example of a "right". It is an entirely man-made idea. And it does not pertain in the animal kingdom. Fido hopes you will throw his ball, but realises he has no right to insist you do.

    Let's take one of God's laws such as "Thou shalt not murder" which you insist is a "right to life". If you murder someone should you expect lightning to strike you, or would you expect the sherif to come a calling?

    Obviously, nothing in the universe will punish you, and if the sherif is a dunce, he may never call. Thus the murder victim had no automatic redress for this injustice, hence no rights.

    And if no human punishes you (which brings murder right back to societies rights) you will get away with murder.

    I am not saying this is good, but just a fact. You have no rights. And anyone who is a murder victim, having rights, but being dead is not going to help you one bit.

    And, from God's point of view, He owes you nothing.
    When a human turns to God as Saviour, God will begin to guard His child like a dog owner might jealously guard his dog. But even then, the dog has no right, just an expectation that his owner will feed it every day.

    The word "servant" is used 491 times in the Bible, and means a slave. Slaves don't have rights. We are compared to slaves or servants.
    Last edited by iouae; December 29th, 2017 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    I suspect you would be wrong. Progress / science helps alleviate a lot of suffering in our world through medicine. Science helps feed billions through agricultural innovation. Science helps devize technologies to make life more enjoyable... and to help spread the Gospel.
    Oh good, we agree.


    God hates evil... not science.
    Yes, Yes!


    The dispersion was due to man's disobedience... nothing to do with God not wanting progress.
    Then explain why God said...
    Gen 11:6
    And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    Gen 11:7
    Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
    Gen 11:8
    So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence

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    Anyone who says that science and progress is bad on this forum is a hypocrite.
    They are using a whole lot of science to communicate on this forum.

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    There is no doubt that demon spirits may have superior knowledge, even of science and technology.

    But look at the following example...

    Act 16:16
    And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
    Act 16:17
    The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
    Act 16:18
    And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

    So this demon spirit has superior knowledge when it says "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation."

    But God puts a stop to it speaking out.

    Look at the next example...
    Luk 8:28
    When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
    Luk 8:29
    (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man....

    Here again the demon spirit knows more than most people, and proclaims what it knows, namely that "Jesus, thou Son of God most high".

    Again it is silenced.

    Demonic knowledge is strictly controlled by God.
    And anything a demon says, is mixed with lies, or has a hidden agenda.

    Let's take another example of demon knowledge...

    Gen 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    Unchecked Copy Box Gen 3:5
    For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    In this case, what the Serpent said was true. Adam and Eve did not die in the day they ate the fruit, and they did become as the (demon) gods knowing or experiencing good and evil. To that point in time, they had only known or experience good.

    Thus Satan may even tell the "truth" but it was a "technical truth" in that they did not strictly die in the day they ate, but 900 years later.

    And being as the demon gods and experiencing good and evil is not what you want.

    There are many cases of spirit knowledge, the Kabbalah stakes me as a case in point. But it is so perverted that you never know what is true or false. Therefore God makes it simple. Avoid mediums. That includes seances, ouija boards, people pretending to communicate with the dead, folks who spirit write under the influence of demons, false prophets like Nostradamus etc.

    I hate the paranormal so much I refuse to watch paranormal movies. Anything with long Dracula or vampire teeth, haunted houses, twilight zones, villages of the damned, zombies etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    satan has been leading us to technology and science to destroy ourselves and suffer greatly along the way.
    Don't you think humans were suffering much more before the advent of science and technology?

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    I am so looking forward to an improvement in artificial intelligence (AI). I just cannot wait for it to improve.

    I speak to folks much smarter than I am, telling them why I am so looking forward to AI. I say things like "I cannot wait until computers take large data sets (say health information) and statistically analyse this data, and join the dots and explain why folks get sick. Maybe the computer doing the analysing also takes into account the human genome. I am looking forward to the day when the computer spits out the reason why Joe suffers from X, Y and Z and then tells Joe what he needs to avoid it.

    Or when the computer takes all the data on education systems around the world, and figures out the common factors in all good education.

    Or when the computer analyses the stock market and figures out, without fail, when to buy or sell.

    Or when the computer learns to recognise and understand human speech, and can communicate with us so that we don't know that it is not human. Like an improved Eliza.

    Or when the computer can know where we are, though we are lost, and it can tell us where to go.

    Or when the computer can control our houses, turn up the thermostat, switch off the light, order milk etc.

    I am so looking forward to this brave new world. I thank God I have seen so much progress in medicine, in crop production, in stem cell research, the internet, computers, cellphones. I look forward to when every dreary job is done by robots, so that nobody is sitting in an Apple factory soldering resistors into circuit boards. And nobody is mining, or doing any dirty or dangerous job underground. I am all for the drones fighting it out among themselves, so that no soldier ever has to go to war ever again.

    But the folks much smarter than me just laugh and say we are so far from that scenario. Simple tasks like getting a car to drive itself are still challenging. Siri is limited. I still have to type this post because speech recognition makes it more work to correct the speech recognition than just sit and type.

    As Jesus ordered Christians many times "Fear not". That is a command, no different to the 10C.
    When the world will end, nobody knows. We will get to see more and better technology in our lifetimes.

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