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Thread: God's attitude towards science and progress

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    God's attitude towards science and progress

    I like science and progress, so already I am biased.

    But my opinion is that God is not too crazy about human progress. The reason is, IMO obvious. When humans make progress, they make better weapons, all the better to destroy themselves. And God's attitude is "Thou shalt not kill".

    So we see no attempt by God to speed up progress. Jesus did not come to earth and teach us electricity.

    Also, the arrow of progress is in one direction - it tends to change human culture in one direction. For example, today, humans walk around stooped, looking at their cellphones.

    At Babel, one gets the idea that God scattered the nations to deliberately slow down progress.
    Gen 11:6
    And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    Unchecked Copy Box Gen 11:7
    Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    Nukes, pollution, global warming, species and habitat loss, drones - these are a result of progress.
    Medicine, more and better crops, ability to communicate, the joy of knowledge - these are a result of progress.

    We educate all children, teaching them science. I would rather NOT teach someone science if I knew they would abuse that knowledge. I would rather not teach everyone how to detonate a bomb from a distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I like science and progress, so already I am biased.

    But my opinion is that God is not too crazy about human progress. The reason is, IMO obvious. When humans make progress, they make better weapons, all the better to destroy themselves. And God's attitude is "Thou shalt not kill".

    So we see no attempt by God to speed up progress. Jesus did not come to earth and teach us electricity.

    Also, the arrow of progress is in one direction - it tends to change human culture in one direction. For example, today, humans walk around stooped, looking at their cellphones.

    At Babel, one gets the idea that God scattered the nations to deliberately slow down progress.
    Gen 11:6
    And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    Unchecked Copy Box Gen 11:7
    Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    Nukes, pollution, global warming, species and habitat loss, drones - these are a result of progress.
    Medicine, more and better crops, ability to communicate, the joy of knowledge - these are a result of progress.

    We educate all children, teaching them science. I would rather NOT teach someone science if I knew they would abuse that knowledge. I would rather not teach everyone how to detonate a bomb from a distance.
    God was trying to slow down evil, satan is the ruler of this world. satan has been leading us to technology and science to destroy ourselves and suffer greatly along the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    God was trying to slow down evil, satan is the ruler of this world. satan has been leading us to technology and science to destroy ourselves and suffer greatly along the way.
    I agree with you Patrick.

    God has greatly limited how demons can interact with humans. I am sure demons have knowledge of technology which they are not allowed to give to mankind.

    And God forbids humans from approaching mediums, or people with familiar spirits, in search of spirit knowledge.
    Lev 19:31
    Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

    But given the technology we have today, seeking knowledge through science is not bad. And if nuclear technology had fallen into the hands of the Nazis first, we would all be speaking German today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I agree with you Patrick.

    God has greatly limited how demons can interact with humans. I am sure demons have knowledge of technology which they are not allowed to give to mankind.

    And God forbids humans from approaching mediums, or people with familiar spirits, in search of spirit knowledge.
    Lev 19:31
    Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

    But given the technology we have today, seeking knowledge through science is not bad. And if nuclear technology had fallen into the hands of the Nazis first, we would all be speaking German today.
    These would have been good posts for my Aethereal thread because it talks about this. It's way more than just "the Germans", this goes back to the beginning and the garden.

    The pagan gods worship and the attempt to contact evil spirits and mediums etc. goes back to nearly the beginning as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    The pagan gods worship and the attempt to contact evil spirits and mediums etc. goes back to nearly the beginning as well.
    Agreed.

    When one looks at mediums today, those pretending to be in contact with the dead, psychics, fortune tellers, shamans, witch doctors etc. I have seldom seen good come from mediums. If mediums can contact the dead, why not ask the murdered dead who murdered them, and solve the case? Yet one never sees this happen. Those who claim to know the future can never give one a jackpot number. Shamans and medicine men seem to know herbs, and use placebo effect to get a cure, or just the power of the mind. That they seem able to do. And a lot of primitive folk believe they are cursed when they are sick, so the ritual removes that fear.

    I have ambivalence towards water diviners.

    But you are right that no human culture is free from demon influence and false gods, right from the beginning of time. But I would hesitate to call what priests and shamans do as "science".

    Also priests seem quite happy to keep folks in the Dark Ages, just so long as they have power. Giving true science knowledge removes folks from superstition, thus priests and demons lose control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    These would have been good posts for my Aethereal thread because it talks about this. It's way more than just "the Germans", this goes back to the beginning and the garden.
    The reason I did not want to post on your AETHEREAL thread was because I don't want to get into a big debate about the definition of "science". To me, science is any technology which works. Any theory which can make predictions (like Einstein did) which come true, is good science. Any experiment which is repeatable, and gives the same result, is science. Any statistic which consistently shows the same pattern, is science, whether it can explain the pattern or not.

    The ETHEREAL guy definitely had it in for certain sciences, such as the atom, quantum physics, energy into matter, waves - all perfectly respectable. He did not like them because HE THOUGHT he saw them hinted at in the Kabbalah. I did not like this because it almost suggested that one should read the Kabbalah for tips on progress.

    If one likes science, it is almost enticing us to go and do what he says Newton and Galileo did, which was to read secret writings and become a big deal scientist. I 100% dispute that these great scientists did that, even if they did read the Kabbalah. Scientific progress is not made like that. Newton's greatest interest was in determining when Christ would return. Science was just his hobby.

    There are no good and bad scientific ideas. There is only science which works and makes accurate predictions, and there is rubbish or speculative science. In the video, someone suggested the number 10 and 26 are central to modern string theory and are big numbers in the Kabbalah. This is a ridiculous assertion since there is no acceptance of string science as being the answer to "The theory of everything".

    Also, it was a shotgun approach, throwing in every branch of science and intimating, hinting, suggesting that this branch is bad because there are suggestions of this in ancient pagan religions. This random mud spraying, hoping that some mud will stick in one's mind, is horrible proof. Proof by intimation of evil is no proof. It's Dark Ages false accusation.

    Also there was the suggestion that quantum physics is sorcery. This was suggested, hinted at, without any proof. It is preying upon the natural human reaction to label anything we cannot understand as sorcery. The next step is to burn the sorcerers at the stake. My feeling is that the more we understand, the less seems mysterious and inexplicable. If one sees a super-cooled torus ring levitating over a magnetic strip, it looks spooky, until this is explained. To see this levitation go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws6AAhTw7RA

    Science is neutral. Any technology which gets in the hands of evil people can be used for evil.
    Likewise, technology in the hands of responsible folks is used for good, to heal and feed and clothe people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    The reason I did not want to post on your AETHEREAL thread was because I don't want to get into a big debate about the definition of "science". To me, science is any technology which works. Any theory which can make predictions (like Einstein did) which come true, is good science. Any experiment which is repeatable, and gives the same result, is science. Any statistic which consistently shows the same pattern, is science, whether it can explain the pattern or not.

    The ETHEREAL guy definitely had it in for certain sciences, such as the atom, quantum physics, energy into matter, waves - all perfectly respectable. He did not like them because HE THOUGHT he saw them hinted at in the Kabbalah. I did not like this because it almost suggested that one should read the Kabbalah for tips on progress.

    If one likes science, it is almost enticing us to go and do what he says Newton and Galileo did, which was to read secret writings and become a big deal scientist. I 100% dispute that these great scientists did that, even if they did read the Kabbalah. Scientific progress is not made like that. Newton's greatest interest was in determining when Christ would return. Science was just his hobby.

    There are no good and bad scientific ideas. There is only science which works and makes accurate predictions, and there is rubbish or speculative science. In the video, someone suggested the number 10 and 26 are central to modern string theory and are big numbers in the Kabbalah. This is a ridiculous assertion since there is no acceptance of string science as being the answer to "The theory of everything".

    Also, it was a shotgun approach, throwing in every branch of science and intimating, hinting, suggesting that this branch is bad because there are suggestions of this in ancient pagan religions. This random mud spraying, hoping that some mud will stick in one's mind, is horrible proof. Proof by intimation of evil is no proof. It's Dark Ages false accusation.

    Also there was the suggestion that quantum physics is sorcery. This was suggested, hinted at, without any proof. It is preying upon the natural human reaction to label anything we cannot understand as sorcery. The next step is to burn the sorcerers at the stake. My feeling is that the more we understand, the less seems mysterious and inexplicable. If one sees a super-cooled torus ring levitating over a magnetic strip, it looks spooky, until this is explained. To see this levitation go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws6AAhTw7RA

    Science is neutral. Any technology which gets in the hands of evil people can be used for evil.
    Likewise, technology in the hands of responsible folks is used for good, to heal and feed and clothe people.
    I'm sorry, you're a poor lost soul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    I'm sorry, you're a poor lost soul.


    Awe, and you two looked like you were getting along so well . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I like science and progress, so already I am biased.

    But my opinion is that God is not too crazy about human progress. The reason is, IMO obvious. When humans make progress, they make better weapons, all the better to destroy themselves. And God's attitude is "Thou shalt not kill".

    So we see no attempt by God to speed up progress. Jesus did not come to earth and teach us electricity.

    Also, the arrow of progress is in one direction - it tends to change human culture in one direction. For example, today, humans walk around stooped, looking at their cellphones.

    At Babel, one gets the idea that God scattered the nations to deliberately slow down progress.
    Gen 11:6
    And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    Unchecked Copy Box Gen 11:7
    Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    Nukes, pollution, global warming, species and habitat loss, drones - these are a result of progress.
    Medicine, more and better crops, ability to communicate, the joy of knowledge - these are a result of progress.

    We educate all children, teaching them science. I would rather NOT teach someone science if I knew they would abuse that knowledge. I would rather not teach everyone how to detonate a bomb from a distance.
    The final statement which I highlighted sounds like some weird population culling proposal: how do you decide who will grow up to be an abuser of science and who will be a "good scientist" that uses science and knowledge for the good of the whole village? (lol) Or are you saying that science should be banned, outlawed, abolished, and done away with entirely so that no one can set off anymore bombs or shoot off anymore rockets? For some reason I get this strange notion of one of the Mad Max Road Warrior movies playing and John Lennon singing "Imagine" in the background.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    The final statement which I highlighted sounds like some weird population culling proposal:
    Now, now Daqq, don't go making up fake news. I never even hinted at culling humans.

    how do you decide who will grow up to be an abuser of science and who will be a "good scientist" that uses science and knowledge for the good of the whole village? (lol)
    We think "Education good - more education better". No! Teaching a suicide bomber how he can detonate a bomb without blowing himself up is a bad idea. There are some folks we should not educate or empower. For instance evil people.

    I was teaching a kid science one day, and we started chatting, and in the process he started telling me some terrible, dark things he wanted to do with the science I was teaching him. I stopped and told him I would rather not teach him science if he wanted to use it for evil. We chatted, and he seemed to be in a bad place, depressed. I think I changed his mind, and convinced him that science should be used for good only. After finishing school, he phoned me to say he got a B in science, which he was quite proud of.

    Einstein deeply regretted writing to Roosevelt telling him to make the bomb before Hitler did.
    Einstein felt that nuclear knowledge should not be in the hands of politicians, and tried to get it back into the hands of responsible scientists. But the ship of progress had sailed, and wasn't coming back. And Einstein was probably wrong about feeling bad about writing to Roosevelt. And thank God Hitler hated Jews and chased Einstein to America where nuclear science could fall into more responsible hands. Stalin could not believe how stupid the Americans were to not dominate Russia, since America held all the cards. But the West was tired of war. Stalin breathed a huge sigh of relief when the Russians caught up with nuclear technology.

    There are no easy solutions to the problem of keeping powerful technology from getting into the wrong hands. Trump would prefer that N Korea did not have nukes, but that ship has sailed.

    Or are you saying that science should be banned, outlawed, abolished, and done away with entirely so that no one can set off anymore bombs or shoot off anymore rockets? For some reason I get this strange notion of one of the Mad Max Road Warrior movies playing and John Lennon singing "Imagine" in the background.
    If someone asks the question "If we have nukes, why don't we use them?", and someone else calls the first someone a "@#$% moron", then what I am suggesting is that maybe we should hide the nuclear codes from that first someone. What is the point of turning N and S Korea into real, live Mad Max movie sets?
    Last edited by iouae; December 29th, 2017 at 01:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    God was trying to slow down evil, satan is the ruler of this world. satan has been leading us to technology and science to destroy ourselves and suffer greatly along the way.
    I suggest you stop using the demonic internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I like science and progress, so already I am biased.

    But my opinion is that God is not too crazy about human progress.
    I think he's just fine with it, and even curious to see what his creation can come up with.

    The reason is, IMO obvious. When humans make progress, they make better weapons, all the better to destroy themselves.
    People are going to make progress whether God wants them to or not, especially those who hate God or who don't believe He exists.

    God gave us a right to life, and the only time we lose that right is when we commit a crime worthy of death. And because we have a right to life, that means we also have a right (even the responsibility) to defend that life. And that means that if someone creates a powerful weapon, and intends to use it to kill and destroy, we have the responsibility to build better weapons to take that person or persons out.

    And God's attitude is "Thou shalt not kill".
    No, God's attitude is "Do not murder."

    If it was "do not kill," then God, just a few chapters later would have been inconsistent when he said to put certain criminals to death.

    So we see no attempt by God to speed up progress. Jesus did not come to earth and teach us electricity.
    So? That doesn't mean that He's opposed to progress. If anything, it means He would rather see things develop at their own pace.

    Also, the arrow of progress is in one direction - it tends to change human culture in one direction. For example, today, humans walk around stooped, looking at their cellphones.

    At Babel, one gets the idea that God scattered the nations to deliberately slow down progress.
    Gen 11:6
    And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    Unchecked Copy Box Gen 11:7
    Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
    I can tell you right now, there is FAR MORE to the Tower of Babel story than just God saying "oh, they're making progress, let Me stop them."

    But it would take an entire Bible study to explain it all. And I don't have the time nor the ability to write that much here.

    Nukes, pollution, global warming, species and habitat loss, drones - these are a result of progress.
    Medicine, more and better crops, ability to communicate, the joy of knowledge - these are a result of progress.
    So is a much, much higher standard of living.

    We educate all children, teaching them science. I would rather NOT teach someone science if I knew they would abuse that knowledge. I would rather not teach everyone how to detonate a bomb from a distance.
    So you would have someone be unable to contribute to society in one of the best ways possible because you're afraid they'll use that knowledge in the wrong way?

    Iouae, how does an economy work, ie, money, business, etc? Do you know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    The reason I did not want to post on your AETHEREAL thread was because I don't want to get into a big debate about the definition of "science". To me, science is any technology which works. Any theory which can make predictions (like Einstein did) which come true, is good science. Any experiment which is repeatable, and gives the same result, is science. Any statistic which consistently shows the same pattern, is science, whether it can explain the pattern or not.

    The ETHEREAL guy definitely had it in for certain sciences, such as the atom, quantum physics, energy into matter, waves - all perfectly respectable. He did not like them because HE THOUGHT he saw them hinted at in the Kabbalah. I did not like this because it almost suggested that one should read the Kabbalah for tips on progress.

    If one likes science, it is almost enticing us to go and do what he says Newton and Galileo did, which was to read secret writings and become a big deal scientist. I 100% dispute that these great scientists did that, even if they did read the Kabbalah. Scientific progress is not made like that. Newton's greatest interest was in determining when Christ would return. Science was just his hobby.
    I think you misunderstood the video. It does not tell you to go study the Kabbalah nor is it anti-science. Most scientists have good intentions and do good work. The video is more about the academic and scientific push to remove God from our understanding. Schools do not teach about God anymore and many scientists don't believe in God. My thread is not an attack on science and technology but a warning. Whether you believe it or not there has been a conflict between academia and Christianity for centuries. I think it's part of satan's plan.

    Maybe from my commentary about the video you expected an anti-science theme. It's much deeper than simply "attacking" science. Almost all important and powerful science and technology is first offered to and used or researched by the military and governments of the world. Many forms of science and technology are weaponized first before being offered to the world. Look at the internet and nuclear weapons, both created by the military and government.As far as what does God think about science and technology? It's the logical progression of mankind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I think he's just fine with it, and even curious to see what his creation can come up with.
    Our idea of fun and progress is that every man sit on his Apple and Blueberry. God's idea for the Millennium is that we sit under our vine and fig tree.

    Mic 4:3
    And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    Unchecked Copy Box Mic 4:4
    But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

    God put Adam and Eve in Eden to garden. I am not disagreeing with you but God feels that righteousness will make WHATEVER type of technological society live in peace and joy.

    People are going to make progress whether God wants them to or not, especially those who hate God or who don't believe He exists.
    It's only in the last few hundred years that progress has occurred, mostly driven by God-fearing, Reformation driven, religious scientists like Newton. You don't know if progress was God driven eg. Gutenberg invented printing so the Bible could get into laymen's hands, so the true Gopel could be preached in all the world.

    God gave us a right to life...
    God gave you no rights, not even to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not even the best person has the right to anything. The Gospel message is that humans have no rights, salvation is by grace. Every pleasant second you spend on earth is by grace and chance - chance that you were not born in Yemen for instance.

    and the only time we lose that right is when we commit a crime worthy of death.
    Completely wrong. Do you think a fish, frog, bird, fruit fly has a right to anything? They die as time and chance turn them into the lowest part of the food chain. I take it you will not argue that humans are different and God owes them something.

    And because we have a right to life, that means we also have a right (even the responsibility) to defend that life.
    That is a religious argument you make. And it is true. In this respect humans differ from animals in that they come with rules like marry one woman, don't kill/murder, don't lie etc. These too are religious rules. Animals don't live by rules because, as a rule, they don't need years of teaching and don't have language.

    And that means that if someone creates a powerful weapon, and intends to use it to kill and destroy, we have the responsibility to build better weapons to take that person or persons out.
    That is assuming morality, assuming a religious culture. Otherwise the most logical thing to do might be to wipe out all opposition, and be the fittest one and the survivor. So you are arguing for religion.


    No, God's attitude is "Do not murder."
    Good. Or if God tells Israel to murder the locals, that makes even murder good.

    If it was "do not kill," then God, just a few chapters later would have been inconsistent when he said to put certain criminals to death.
    God is not obliged to be consistent either. The Canaanites had no rights to Palestine because they were there first. God just ordered their genocide.

    But, for His people, He did lay down laws. Laws only make sense from a religious worldview. Otherwise, human law may make it right to murder anyone different. Maybe in ancient cultures this is the reception all strangers got. They were invited to dinner, and they WERE the dinner.

    So? That doesn't mean that He's opposed to progress. If anything, it means He would rather see things develop at their own pace.
    I must have missed that verse.


    I can tell you right now, there is FAR MORE to the Tower of Babel story than just God saying "oh, they're making progress, let Me stop them."

    But it would take an entire Bible study to explain it all. And I don't have the time nor the ability to write that much here.
    Until you explain it, no other explanation exists.

    Iouae, how does an economy work, ie, money, business, etc? Do you know?
    Economy, money, business, education, war - you name any human activity, and you will find the pagans got to it first, such as at Sumer or Egypt. So we could argue that science and all human activity has its origins in paganism. But I refuse to say that this makes economy, money, science, education, metalwork etc. bad.

    Science and progress in the hands of good people is good. Science, money, metal, technology in the wrong hands is bad. That's my position.
    Last edited by iouae; December 29th, 2017 at 09:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    I think you misunderstood the video. It does not tell you to go study the Kabbalah nor is it anti-science. Most scientists have good intentions and do good work. The video is more about the academic and scientific push to remove God from our understanding. Schools do not teach about God anymore and many scientists don't believe in God. My thread is not an attack on science and technology but a warning. Whether you believe it or not there has been a conflict between academia and Christianity for centuries. I think it's part of satan's plan.
    If the video said what you said above, I would have no problem with it.

    Maybe from my commentary about the video you expected an anti-science theme. It's much deeper than simply "attacking" science. Almost all important and powerful science and technology is first offered to and used or researched by the military and governments of the world. Many forms of science and technology are weaponized first before being offered to the world. Look at the internet and nuclear weapons, both created by the military and government.As far as what does God think about science and technology? It's the logical progression of mankind.
    There is no branch of science inherently bad. All science in bad hands can be turned to evil.

    Nukes were invented in 1945 and not 100 years has passed. God retarded human progress because, given a few more decades or centuries, mankind would start a nuclear war, and that would be a mass extinction. God saw this starting at Babel, and scattered mankind to delay the end times. The end times started when we invented things like nukes which could end us.

    The video was nicely made, and I could imagine a church audience sitting there and agreeing with what was said, because church audiences almost invariably agree with what comes from the pulpit. I personally did not like its anti-science message behind the slick presentation.

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