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Thread: Conspiracy - Are Some Theories Accurate?

  1. #91
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    My list? It evolves as I look at some great ones still playing.

    1. Montana - king of the SBs. Best qb in the biggest game.
    You irrationally base too much on Montana's Super Bowl stats. But if he had to play the Iron Curtain version of the Steelers in two of his Super Bowls then I seriously doubt that those stats would be so great. In fact, he might have only had a 2-2 Super Bowl record. And his other stats in those two games would have been less than stellar.

    If that would have happened would you still rate him as your number one receiver? Of course you wouldn't and no one else would. So in your mind Montana is the best ever, even though he won by the luck of the draw. If Staubach had played a lesser opponent instead of those Steelers two times in the Super Bowl he could have been the one with a 4-0 record and sterling stats in the Super Bowls!

    If that had happened you would probably be arguing that Staubach is the greatest of all time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You irrationally base too much on Montana's Super Bowl stats.
    Actually no, though there's nothing irrational about suggesting four nearly perfect performances in the biggest game of the sport is a pretty good argument. I also place Marino in a fairly lofty position though he never won one. Joe had one of the best careers and one of the highest averages you could want, but he also had more, another gear that most of even the great qbs lack. He got better when it mattered most.

    But if he had to play the Iron Curtain version of the Steelers
    I don't know that it's true. I've seen how he fared against top tier defenses. It was remarkable too. Left the current golden boy in the dust.

    in two of his Super Bowls then I seriously doubt that those stats would be so great. In fact, he might have only had a 2-2 Super Bowl record. And his other stats in those two games would have been less than stellar.
    That's just you indulging in a self-serving fantasy. The facts suggest you're mistaken. And if you have to invoke fantasy to make your case you really aren't making your case.

    If that would have happened would you still rate him as your number one receiver? Of course you wouldn't and no one else would.
    You mean qb, but all you just said is, "If this thing that didn't happen happened and he performed in a way that he didn't when he actually played you'd have a different opinion." And if the sun set in the east I'd look a different direction to watch it.

    So in your mind Montana is the best ever, even though he won by the luck of the draw.
    A lot of teams beat those Steelers. A lot of teams beat the Niners. Both only won the big game four times. Impressive, but it's not as though either the Steel Curtain or Joe's offense stopped any serious competition all the time.

    Anyway, to my mind he's the best ever because he performed better than all but a few on average and better than any across four SB appearances. No one is close to his average. That's what separates a number of great players. And Roger didn't play the Steelers every Sunday. His league wasn't stacked with appreciably better teams than Montana faced. But against his peers he doesn't approach the level of play Joe produced.

    Staubach had three really good to excellent years. Just looking at the years where he started most of the games, here is his playing rating:

    Regular season avg - play off avg

    71: 104.8 - 98.6
    73: 94.6 - 51.4
    74: 68.4 - NA
    75: 78.5 - 96.5
    76: 79.9 - 19.0
    77: 87.0 - 88.3
    78: 84.9 - 77.3
    79: 92.3 - 53.3

    Five great regular seasons. Two great post seasons and one strong post season. One horrible, two really bad, and one meh post season.

    Here's Joe using the same metrics:

    81: 88.4 - 94.3
    83: 94.6 - 84.8
    84: 102.9 - 89.8
    85: 91.3 - 65.6
    87: 102.1 - 42.0
    88: 87.9 - 117.0
    89: 112.4 - 146.4
    90: 89.0 - 104.7

    Five great regular seasons. Three exceptional regular seasons. Four great post seasons. One exceptional and one strong. One bad and one really bad post season.


    If Staubach had played a lesser opponent instead of those Steelers two times in the Super Bowl he could have been the one with a 4-0 record and sterling stats in the Super Bowls!
    You're free to believe whatever you want to believe. I'd rather another qb be in the GOAT position, but that's just not how it was or is.
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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I don't know that it's true. I've seen how he fared against top tier defenses. It was remarkable too. Left the current golden boy in the dust.
    Of which defense are you speaking of and how many Hall of Famers and All-Decade Team selections were on that defense? And how many of the same were on the offensive side of that same defense?

    I don't think that you realize just how great was the Steel Curtain version of the Steelers.

    Here's Joe using the same metrics:
    Do you realize that using the regular season average that there are TWELVE quarterbacks with a better QB rating that Joe?
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; January 3rd, 2018 at 12:11 AM.

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  7. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Of which defense are you speaking of and how many Hall of Famers and All-Decade Team selections were on that defense? And how many of the same were on the offensive side of that same defense?
    Those defenses. The Steelers were a great one. And there have always been great defenses in the league. You don't tend to find them holding the line as long as the Steelers due to free agency, so it's a bit misleading to try to measure the greatness of a defense in the modern era of free agent movement by looking for Hall players. And most teams are great as a sum. The 85 Bears are not infrequently ranked as the greatest single season defense, by way of example. I think four HOFers were on it. Sometimes it's about overall strength and coaching, with enough great ones at key positions, as with the Baltimore Ravens of Lewis. Another all time team.

    I don't think that you realize just how great was the Iron Curtain version of the Steelers.
    And again, he didn't play the Steelers all year long. And I've noted that his regular season rating/performance wasn't much removed from the average of Roger's post season. Every great qb has challenges during his run.

    Free agency has made a run like either team saw less likely these days. Great offenses or defenses are relatively quickly picked clean of the tiers that make them great, even if they retain a core. A three SB run during the life of that core is outstanding and rare. Two is the mark of a really finely tuned organization. That's one thing that makes New England remarkable.

    Another thing lost in the shuffle, offense and balance. The Steelers weren't just a great defense. Take the beginning of the run and what is often argued as their best defensive year. They allowed a league low 138 pts. They also scored 342 pts. Only five teams did better on that side of the ball. That meant their defense wasn't on the field all day and their stars were in a perfect position to shine and rest, unlike a, say, Baltimore team of renown.

    The Niners best year was arguably 89, when they destroyed the Denver Broncos in the SB. That beating tends to make people misunderstand the Broncos as some weakling team that didn't belong. But the fact of the matter is that Denver had only allowed 4 more points on average than the Steel Curtain did in its best year. They were the number one defense in points allowed that year. Joe hung 55 on them while the defense held Denver to less than half its average for the year offensively.

    Do you realize that using the regular season average that there are TWELVE quarterbacks with a better QB rating that Joe?
    Sure, and if I only counted regular season average as the prime indicator that would be a blow. It's easier now, which is why Nick Foles has one of the highest single season outings by a qb and the first seven are all fairly recent. And it's why there are twelve qbs with 90+ ratings and one with a 100+ ahead of Joe, all but one of which are players whose careers were made after the game changes that favored the position. The lone guy ahead of him from his era is Young. And Young couldn't match Joe in the post season. Not even close.

    Staughback enters the contest at around 37. I have him 9th, not 37th for the same reason. It's about more than one thing, though the heaviest weight has always been placed on post season play and the distinguishing factor among the greatest has always been performance in the big game, the Super Bowl. Not necessarily winning or losing, but how you do either. It's one reason Peyton really can't be considered for the GOAT, even by those of us who suspect his weakness was in trying to compensate for teams he made better than they were.
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  8. #96
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    But if he had to play the Iron Curtain version of the Steelers
    STEEL CURTAIN !!!

    It was Joe Greene, not Joe Stalin.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I don't think that you realize just how great was the Steel Curtain version of the Steelers.
    Roger Staubach did.

    The Steelers sacked him SEVEN times in Super Bowl X, and he threw THREE interceptions.

    Roger Staubach couldn't carry Joe Montana's lunch.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Roger Staubach did.

    The Steelers sacked him SEVEN times in Super Bowl X, and he threw THREE interceptions.
    Yes, and despite that Staubach rallied his team from the brink and had a chance to win at the end but unfortunately the pass in the end zone to win fell incomplete and the Boys lost by four points!

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Roger Staubach couldn't carry Joe Montana's lunch.
    Many people believe that Jerry Rice was the best NFL player of all time. You give Staubach Rice and let Montana play the 70's Steelers twice without Rice and let the Boys play a couple of the 49ers Super Bowl opponents twice and Staubach's stats will blow Joe's away!

    No doubt about it!

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    STEEL CURTAIN !!!

    It was Joe Greene, not Joe Stalin.
    I had corrected that before your post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Many people believe that Jerry Rice was the best NFL player of all time.
    I'd agree he was the best wr. And Joe won half of his rings without Rice.

    You give Staubach Rice and let Montana play the 70's Steelers twice without Rice and let the Boys play a couple of the 49ers Super Bowl opponents twice and Staubach's stats will blow Joe's away!
    There's no reason to believe that unless you just want to. It's not empirically based.

    See, that's one important difference in this conversation. You're a major homer. I never rooted for Joe. Not once. So we're being moved by very different forces in coming to our respective conclusions about the comparison.
    No doubt about it!
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  16. #101
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I'd agree he was the best wr. And Joe won half of his rings without Rice.
    No, only one without Rice. If Staubach had Rice as a receiver the Boys would have had a real good chance of beating the Steelers in both Super Bowl games since they only lost by four points in both games. And if Montana didn't have Rice and played the Steelers in two of their Super Bowls there is only a small chance that they could have won.

    So, yes, you can argue that Montana was the best Quarterback in NFL history, but without the luck of the draw and without maybe the best NFL football player of all time to throw to he might have won only one Super Bowl.

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  18. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, only one without Rice.
    No guy, you've always been wrong about that. He won two without Rice. I corrected you on this a long time ago. No idea why it hasn't sunk in. No. Rice has two rings with Joe and one with Young. Joe won two rings before Rice stepped on a field with him. Or, he was as successful without Rice as he was with him, a claim Jerry can't make.

    In fact, you have a problem given that the best wr playing with the same team and a qb you called better than Montana only managed to win one together. He doubled that production without Rice.

    And in route to that one SB win without Joe, Joe beat Jerry and Young and his former cadre with a lesser (if still good) Chiefs team.

    If Staubach
    Fantasy camp again... Staubach played with some really, really good teams on both sides of the ball. And by your own following they weren't so outclassed that the match ups weren't competitive. As you put it:

    they only lost by four points in both games.
    See?

    So, yes, you can argue that Montana was the best Quarterback in NFL history
    More, it's hard to argue against it reasonably.

    but without the luck of the draw and without maybe the best NFL football player of all time to throw to he might have won only one Super Bowl.
    Montana won in 82 and 85. Then Jerry came around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, and despite that Staubach rallied his team from the brink and had a chance to win at the end but unfortunately the pass in the end zone to win fell incomplete and the Boys lost by four points!
    Then the Cowboys got Heisman Trophy winner Tony Dorsett, played the Steelers two years later in the Super Bowl, and Staubach and the Cowboys lost once again to the Steelers in the Super Bowl.

    You could have given the Cowboys Jerry Rice in addition to Tony Dorsett, and the Steelers still would have beaten them in those Super Bowls.

    Staubach just wasn't very good.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Fantasy camp again...
    I'm just pointing out some varibles which must be considered before anyone can determine who is the better quarterback.

    And you are right about Joe winning two Super Bowls without Rice. Excuse me.

    I guess at this point we will just have to agree to disagree and I am ready to discuss the fact that high officals in Obama's Justice Department and the FBI conspired to help Hillary in the investigation of her emails. After all, the facts reveal that Comey had already decided to declare her not guilty even before hearing key testimony from witnesses and even before hearing her testimony:

    Fired FBI Director James Comey drafted a statement to announce the conclusion in the investigation of Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server before the FBI interviewed key witnesses, including Hillary Clinton herself, top Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee claim.

    Committee chairman Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, and Lindsey Graham, R-South Carolina, reached that conclusion from transcripts of interviews with people close to Comey and provided by the Department of Justice's Office of Special Counsel (OSC). Those transcripts, the Republicans said in a Thursday letter to current FBI Director Chris Wray, show Comey had already drafted a conclusion for his investigation before interviewing 17 key witnesses, including Clinton, and before the DOJ had reached immunity agreements with former Clinton aides Cheryl Mills and Heather Samuelson.


    The fix was in!

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