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Thread: Conspiracy - Are Some Theories Accurate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    When I was a kid I loved Staubach.
    When he retired he retired with the highest quarterback rating in the history of the NFL. His leadership qualities were off the chart and they didn't call him Roger the Dodger for nothing.

    He had it all in spades!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    When he retired he retired with the highest quarterback rating in the history of the NFL. His leadership qualities were off the chart and they didn't call him Roger the Dodger for no reason.

    He had it all in spades!
    I was 8 in 77 and I bought cards at the store. I had a Tony Dorsett rookie card and I gave it to a guy from Texas (a huge Cowboys fan).


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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    I was 8 in 77 and I bought cards at the store. I had a Tony Dorsett rookie card and I gave it to a guy from Texas (a huge Cowboys fan).
    I also had a Tony Dorsett rookie card and I also gave it to someone from Texas who was a huge Cowboy fan. Small world!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Do you think that the Washington Post is a questionable outlet?
    You need to distinguish between an op/ed and news.

    Here is what we find in that news source:
    What you published from it was opinion piece. He's also the same man who wrote, "In this holiday season, a familiar question arises: Is President Donald Trump trying to undermine democracy, or is he just irredeemably vain?"

    That's what he does.

    Even The Washington Post recognizes that the Rosen affair is a flagrant assault on civil liberties. But according to you they were only monitoring Rosen!
    Rather, a man who wrote an op-ed piece to get reactions declared it, which is something else.

    Those dastardly deeds sends chills down my back.
    A sensation born of imagination? That seems about right.

    But even worse than that is all the people like you who defend those actions
    I haven't agreed with the premise so I'm not defending what hasn't been established as either a) a violation of law, or b) some ethical breach to be set at then President Obama's feet.

    And what's worse is people who confuse opinion with fact, hyperbole with analysis and sensationalism (so long as it's the other guy's ox) as a bold declaration of truth.

    saying that Rosen was only being monitored.
    If your phone is being tapped or your emails examined, whereabouts confirmed, etc. you're under surveillance. Surveillance, monitored, so long as it's legal, under a writ and/or appropriate authority there's nothing wrong with it.

    How abut the Huffington Post which ran this headline?:"DOJ Calls Fox News Reporter James Rosen 'Co-Conspirator' In Leak Case; Journalists Outraged"
    Sounds like some Journalists were outraged. I thought you believed most of them were propaganda enthusiasts. So now some unnamed among them are credible?

    Do tell.

    All I see from you is an ignorance about what really went on with the Department of Justice in regard to FOX reporter James Rosen.
    That's because you conclude first. But then ignorance of one particular, whenever it's established, isn't particularly shocking. I'm betting any number of things happen in a day, week, or month that get by most people who aren't dedicating inordinate amounts of time to keeping abreast of most of what's reported. Nothing inherently troubling in that given how easy it is to get up to speed.

    And do you really think that Holder would have even ordered the spying on Rosen without the consent of Obama?
    Produce proof or what either of us think isn't really worth much. And your "spying" is just more evidence of a tendency to conclude without facts. Spying isn't what's done under writ and/or authority.

    Of course we shouldn't worry about anyone in any administration spying on journalists just trying to do their job because the real threat is being suspicious of our neighbors.
    Which is only half of what I said. Supra on proof and "spying" but the rest is true enough. Paranoia born of partisan nonsense is dangerous. Disrespect of public institutions that has been part of the Republican agenda when out of power will and has come back to haunt them when in power. Seeds and whatnot.

    LOL!
    Unless you're a 15 year old girl and this is your diary, stop that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    He thinks that I am crazy for saying that Roger Staubach was a better NFL quarterback than Joe Montana.
    I'd think anyone who wasn't a stary eyed Cowboy fan and thought Staubach was a better qb than Montana was...less than empirical in approach and less than objective in analysis. Montana, who I never rooted for and whose team was never my team, was demonstrably the best at what he did. Four SBs with over 100 rating, no ints. That sort of thing.

    I wonder how many games he saw Staubach play? I saw them all.
    I doubt you literally did that. And if you did were you present or was this on tv? I've seen him on tape and heard stories about him, looked at the numbers that support both my observations and his greatness. I have a pretty good record at estimating ability through analysis, from team to individual (which is how I arrive at the team estimation, summed).

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    When I was a kid I loved Staubach.
    Exceptional qb, to be sure. But he's not the GOAT by any reasoned stretch. Nothing wrong with that. There's only one of those and a number of great athletes vying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Paranoia born of partisan nonsense is dangerous.
    So you approve of the way that James Rosen was treated by Obama's Justice Department?

    You prove that the saying attributed to P.T. Barnum is absolutely true, "That there's a sucker born every minute."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I'd think anyone who wasn't a stary eyed Cowboy fan and thought Staubach was a better qb than Montana was...less than empirical in approach and less than objective in analysis.
    Let's look at the facts about the ability of both players. Staubach had the stronger arm and as I said earlier, when he retired he retired with the highest quarterback rating in NFL history. Montana couldn't hold a candle to Staubach when it came to leadership. Staubach was great when it came to scrambling while Montana looked like he had cement in his shoes!

    In fact, Montana was not even the best quarterback to play for the 49'ers because Steve Young was better than Montana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Montana, who I never rooted for and whose team was never my team, was demonstrably the best at what he did. Four SBs with over 100 rating, no ints. That sort of thing.
    If Montana had to play the Iron Curtain version of the Steelers in two Super Bowls, like Staubach did, then I seriously doubt that he would have ever won four Super Bowls.

    All you prove is that you are a stary eyed observer of the game who thinks stats tell the whole story!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Let's look at the facts about the ability of both players.
    If being great at the position was about physical ability, beyond that necessary to deliver the ball, then Jeff George would be in the Hall of Fame.

    Staubach had the stronger arm and as I said earlier, when he retired he retired with the highest quarterback rating in NFL history.
    Solid arm and a great qb. And before Jordan there were a few great shooting guards too. After him as well.

    Montana couldn't hold a candle to Staubach when it came to leadership.
    No idea why you believe that outside of being a Cowboy homer. I know Montana led them to four SBs and won all of them with a rating/contribution over 100 and no ints. I recall his legendary cool in the midst of a drive in one (the John Candy drive, to people interested). How was he in the lives of his players? When his right tackle, Harris Barton, was lost with a torn tricep he remembered, "When I was in the hospital getting my arm operated on, he was the first guy who called me. He and [Montana's wife] Jennifer sent flowers to my dad when he was in the hospital."

    Staubach was great when it came to scrambling while Montana looked like he had cement in his shoes!
    Actually, Montana was really, really effective when driven from the pocket. But if that was the measure of greatness Tarkenton would be in the discussion. He isn't.

    In fact, Montana was not even the best quarterback to play for the 49'ers because Steve Young was better than Montana.
    Steve was another great qb, but he sat on the bench behind Montana until Joe was on his last leg. That wasn't because the Niners were emotionally attached (see: Joe trade). And, again, Joe took a decent Chiefs team and beat Steve with that eventual SB winning team he once helmed.

    What did Steve say about it? "Right up to the end I thought we could come back and win it. I learned from Joe, from the master. Today the master had a little more to teach the student."


    If Montana had to play the Iron Curtain version of the Steelers in two Super Bowls, like Staubach did, then I seriously doubt that he would have ever won four Super Bowls.
    Montana's rating in the post season against top 5 defenses? 95.6. For perspective, Brady's rating is 79.1 against top 5 playoff defenses. I'll have to look at Roger's.

    All you prove is that you are a stary eyed observer of the game who thinks stats tell the whole story!
    Stats reflect the truth that homers hate. And if you're willing to look at them and accept it over preference you can, as I do, acknowledge that truth even when it puts your guy behind the guy who deserves it. And that's how a life-long AFC fan gives Montana the nod deserved. And it's why I beat the pants off homers calling games against the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So you approve of the way that James Rosen was treated by Obama's Justice Department?

    You prove that the saying attributed to P.T. Barnum is absolutely true, "That there's a sucker born every minute."
    When you don't wait for an answer, for evidence before you judge and conclude a thing it mostly proves my case. You're bias blind. Same with Roger. It's just your method, I suppose. And it makes for a great fan and partisan, but you're working math with a bad calculator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    No idea why you believe that outside of being a Cowboy homer. I know Montana led them to four SBs and won all of them with a rating/contribution over 100 and no ints.
    Otto Graham knew something about being a quarterback in the NFL as he was regarded by many people as one of the most dominant players of his time. He took the Browns to league championship games every year between 1946 and 1955, winning seven of them. He said:

    "I coached the College All-Star game for 10 years and of all the quarterbacks in that game, Roger was the best I ever had. He was a great leader - that's the most important thing for a quarterback."

    According to Graham, who should know about these things, the most important thing for a quarterback is leadership and Staubach had it in spades! If you were watching the Cowboys during the 70's you would have seen the tremendous change which came upon that team when Craig Morton was replaced by Staubach. They won a Super Bowl in his first year as starter. His fellow players would have followed him to hell!

    Of course you can look at your stats all day long and it will not tell you about a quarterback's leadership ability. Besides having that quality when he retired he had the highest quarterback rating in the history of the NFL so he was not lacking in any sense the ability to pass effectively in the NFL. He was also one of the best, if not the best, scrambling quarterbacks in the game and his scrambling saved many games for the Boys. During his tenure at quarterback his fellow players believed that they never lost but instead they just ran out of time. Staubach was the original " Captain Comeback" and the one and only "Captain America."

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    When you don't wait for an answer, for evidence before you judge and conclude a thing it mostly proves my case
    I don't need an answer because you went out of your way to defend the way that Obama's Justice Department went after Rosen!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Otto Graham knew something about being a quarterback in the NFL
    He sure did. A winner. But as with the Celtic great, Russell, he wasn't the greatest at what he did either.

    as he was regarded by many people as one of the most dominant players of his time.
    A fair assessment given the number of championships he accumulated. A Russell for another sport. A Brady for another era.

    He said: "I coached the College All-Star game for 10 years and of all the quarterbacks in that game, Roger was the best I ever had. He was a great leader - that's the most important thing for a quarterback."
    I believe him. But he never coached Joe, but I accept the ringing endorsement within the context. I'm sure he was. The last time there was a poll of HOFers on the whole GOAT business Joe won the vote of confidence handily. And all of that's interesting, but it's subjective. What isn't subjective is Joe's career numbers, wins, and SB performances. No one in the history of the game has played at his level in the biggest game for the sport.

    According to Graham, who should know about these things, the most important thing for a quarterback is leadership and Staubach had it in spades!
    I've never said a word against Staubach's leadership skills, so I'm not sure why you feel you need to support the idea. What I rebutted was your unfortunate attempt to denigrate Joe. It was wrong headed and uncalled for at literally every turn.

    Of course you can look at your stats all day long and it will not tell you about a quarterback's leadership ability.
    Sure it will. Leaders take their team somewhere. But again, no one should dispute the ability of either quarterback to inspire and lead, be he Roger the Dodger or Joe Cool.

    Besides having that quality when he retired he had the highest quarterback rating in the history of the NFL
    He's what, 42nd now? And no one is close to Joe's multiple SB rating of 127. Two SB MVPs. Four rings, no ints., etc.

    so he was not lacking in any sense the ability to pass effectively in the NFL. He was also one of the best, if not the best, scrambling quarterbacks in the game
    Tarkenton was better at scrambling, but Roger was probably the next best thing in that particular.

    And on the other thing...
    I don't need an answer because you went out of your way to defend the way that Obama's Justice Department went after Rosen!
    Well, no, no I didn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Well, no, no I didn't.
    Well, it sure seems that you were trying your best to downplay the editoral comments found in the Washington Post. Since this thread is about conspiracies I wondered what you think of the following article which certainly indicates that the fake Trump dossier paid for by Hillary was and is in the middle of a conspiracy against Trump:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...trump-campaign

    Do you think that it is just a coincidence that one of the top justice department officals was meeting with the head of the firm who was paid to put out this dossier? And do you think that it was just a coincidence that this same top offical's wife was working for that same firm and was doing work for the firm in regard to Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    But again, no one should dispute the ability of either quarterback to inspire and lead, be he Roger the Dodger or Joe Cool.
    I didn't dispute anything about Joe Cool. Instead, I provided very good evidence about what a great quarterback said about Staubach's leadership ability but I don't think that I ever heard that leadership was a strong suit in regard to Joe.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I just never heard that about Joe. But I know that it is true in regard to Stauback, and as Otto Graham said, leadership is the most important thing for a quarterback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Well, it sure seems that you were trying your best to downplay the editoral comments found in the Washington Post.
    I contextualized them and offered a slice of his shtick on Trump, to add perspective.

    Since this thread is about conspiracies I wondered what you think of the following article which certainly indicates that the fake Trump dossier paid for by Hillary was and is in the middle of a conspiracy against Trump:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...trump-campaign
    A lot on my plate but I'll try to get around to it if time allows. I have an EdTPA 50 page book become familiar with by Friday and a few things to do relating to my internship that begins next Monday, so I can't say when.

    I didn't dispute anything about Joe Cool.
    I think the term I used was disparaged. You didn't just advance your guy, you made comments about the other guy. Cement in his shoes? His ability to score from outside the pocket was part of what made him great. Couldn't hold a candle in terms of leadership? By what objective metric? Better to advance your guy's virtues, if you felt the need. I never said he lacked any quality of greatness at the position. An all time great. Just not the GOAT.

    Instead, I provided very good evidence about what a great quarterback said about Staubach's leadership ability but I don't think that I ever heard that leadership was a strong suit in regard to Joe.
    I gave you two examples I recalled without being a particular fan of his, one on the field and one off. Even the guy who couldn't wait to replace him called him the master. That's respect for a man who led the Niners to four SB wins and two SB MVPs. Only very special players make it to that mountain top. Rare ones return to it. Joe is the king of those.

    Here's another, from one of the best offensive minds the game has seen and a pretty good coach with first hand information:

    “Joe Montana’s leadership was grounded in this key characteristic: Despite the fact that he was the starting quarterback, with all of the trappings that come with that position, he never played favorites or believed that a person’s reputation, status, or credentials entitled him to special treatment. When you worked with Joe, you were treated as an equal. There were no stars in the Montana system, including Joe Montana. That corny old cliché, ‘One for all and all for one,’ could have been written with him in mind.”
    ~Bill Walsh
    That sounds like leadership to me too.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I just never heard that about Joe. But I know that it is true in regard to Stauback, and as Otto Graham said, leadership is the most important thing for a quarterback.
    Then Joe, getting to and winning four would be by inference the possessor of that quality, since it's the most important thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Even the guy who couldn't wait to replace him called him the master.
    Yes, Steve Young called Montana the master but who did Young idolize:

    "Young idolized Staubach, and after Staubach won the MVP, Young put a poster of the Dallas quarterback on his bedroom wall. From that poster, Young taught himself how to properly grip a football."

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Here's another, from one of the best offensive minds the game has seen and a pretty good coach with first hand information:

    “Joe Montana’s leadership was grounded in this key characteristic: Despite the fact that he was the starting quarterback, with all of the trappings that come with that position, he never played favorites or believed that a person’s reputation, status, or credentials entitled him to special treatment. When you worked with Joe, you were treated as an equal. There were no stars in the Montana system, including Joe Montana. That corny old cliché, ‘One for all and all for one,’ could have been written with him in mind.”
    ~Bill Walsh
    That sounds like leadership to me too.
    Montana's leadership skills seem to me a bare minimum--that he treated all his fellow players as equals!

    If that is the best Walsh could do in describing the leadership abilities of Montana he might as well have said nothing because the little he said says it all.

    In retrospect, I think that I have provided enough info on Roger Staubach that no one besides you thinks that I am crazy for saying that in my opinion Staubach was a better quarterback than Montana.

    Now I hope that you can find the time to read the article which I provided because I look forward to your response.

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    I get it now, this is a NFL conspiracy for the GQOAT.

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    PJ, Jerry is trying to launch a conspiracy to promote Staubach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, Steve Young called Montana the master but who did Young idolize:
    The guy whose style his style of play most resembled? Though to be fair that remark was about Young as a kid who put the poster on his wall after Staubach won the league MVP. Joe wasn't playing then and couldn't compete.
    Montana's leadership skills seem to me a bare minimum--that he treated all his fellow players as equals!
    All you're demonstrating at this point is a willful bias. Sad to see it. You have to push the other guy down to feel better about your guy? Okay, but it's irrational. I've given you multiple reasons to believe otherwise.

    If that is the best Walsh could do in describing the leadership abilities of Montana he might as well have said nothing because the little he said says it all.
    Walsh disagreed. So do I. Joe led by not buying into the star mentality, by only being upset that Young had been handed what he was willing to compete for. He evidenced that leadership by calming his players in the midst of a meaningful Super Bowl drive. He led by being the first guy to make sure his guys were taken care of when they were injured.

    Said kicking great, Nick Lowery, "There was something about Joe. What he brought to the team could not be equaled in terms of track record and swagger. It wasn’t cowboy swagger, but it was the confident, quiet Joe Montana swagger … a guy who was so comfortable within himself. He brought the glue to the whole team."

    That's what leaders do.

    In retrospect, I think that I have provided enough info on Roger Staubach that no one besides you thinks that I am crazy for saying that in my opinion Staubach was a better quarterback than Montana.
    Which is why no one outside of Dallas makes the argument. Seriously, I doubt you'll find him cracking the top five (though he absolutely belongs in the top ten) of all time qb lists.

    John Clayton has him at 14 (I have him higher).
    Bleacher has him at 9 (fairer)
    Brandt's has him 8
    Athlon ranks him 12th
    SI ranked the top 10 and he wasn't in it.
    He's at 9 on the fan generated Ranker.
    The Big Lead has him at 9.
    247 Sports puts him 8th.
    CBS Sports has him 14th.
    NESN puts him 9th.
    Washington Times, 14th.
    USA Today, 10th.
    The Sports Drop, 10th.
    NFL.com has him the highest, at 7th.

    The thing is, I literally can't find a major player that puts your guy in the top 5, let alone GOAT conversation. I don't think it makes you crazy, honestly, but I do think it contextualizes your comments. Great qb, but no one outside of Homerville is or has put him into the GOAT conversation. Top 10? Absolutely, for now.

    My list? It evolves as I look at some great ones still playing.

    1. Montana - king of the SBs. Best qb in the biggest game.

    2. Manning/Brady - it depends on what you want. Manning is Unitas plus, was capable of taking multiple teams to a SB, rallying when his body was done to beat out his rival and advance to his last hurrah. Brady, greatest system qb of all time. He's even said so. And he's not being modest, he's right. But what a system. And only one or two players have had this sustained a level of play. Both remarkable. I think they belong paired.

    4. Young - Roger part II. As with Manning, he surpassed the original. QBs are really just catching up to his evolution at the position.

    5. Marino - best pure passer I've ever seen. Had the first 5k season. Three decades later, with qb and wr rules in place to favor offenses, a few others managed it. Give Marino those benefits and he'd have that record too. Only Marino and Peyton have a 5k and 48+ season under their belts. And again, when Dan did it that was a much harder thing to manage.

    6. Elway - most natural ability I've ever seen. Carried teams that didn't belong into SBs. Could beat you with leg or arm. And when he lost that he found discipline to show us a glimpse of the unfulfilled potential. Could have been the GOAT. Still makes the top 10.

    7. Favre - joyful gunslinger who had his best year when most qbs, even great ones, are in their rocking chairs talking about it.

    8. Unitas - started the 4th quarter rallies of moment. Amazing field general who played into his 40s. Revolutionary.

    9. Staubach - lost some quality time to service and still belongs in the conversation of best to play the position. Mobility, moxy, and arm. One of the most feared in his generation.

    10.Can't do it. Starr, Graham...though I think Brees and Rodgers will both make this a superfluous worry.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







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