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Thread: Paul: "The Just (Justified) Shall Live By Faith" and not by rules, laws or religion

  1. #16
    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    The law brings WRATH, Romans 4:15. Why in the world do you want to be under the law?
    I do not see any reason to not obey God. There is no good reason to not obey God. We are not to have a reason to not obey God.

    I thought you were talking about how there is no law so there is no transgression.

    I do not know what you are asking me by saying something about why in the world would I want to be under the law. The law is good. I am not under the law. Now, can I observe God's Law or do you want to take that away from me? Do you believe that as a Jew I can observe God's law written on my mind and heart in the new covenant, but not the Law of Moses? Help me to understand your view. How can you have God's law without God's Law?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

  2. #17
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I do not see any reason to not obey God. There is no good reason to not obey God. We are not to have a reason to not obey God.

    I thought you were talking about how there is no law so there is no transgression.

    I do not know what you are asking me by saying something about why in the world would I want to be under the law. The law is good. I am not under the law. Now, can I observe God's Law or do you want to take that away from me? Do you believe that as a Jew I can observe God's law written on my mind and heart in the new covenant, but not the Law of Moses? Help me to understand your view. How can you have God's law without God's Law?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    If you were truly a Jew, you'd answer one way.

    If you were a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and his work on the Cross, you'd answer another way.

    As it stands, you can't really answer or understand what Scripture is saying.

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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    If you were truly a Jew, you'd answer one way.

    If you were a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and his work on the Cross, you'd answer another way.

    As it stands, you can't really answer or understand what Scripture is saying.
    When a Christian believes in the New Covenant and becomes a Jew who observes the Torah, does He also observe or believe in the New Covenant or does He only then observe or believe in the New Covenant or would it have been better for him if he only observes or believes the New Covenant? I do not know in my life if I learned or knew about the new covenant before the Law of Moses.

    I stated that I obey God. Then I dealt with if I obey or observe God's Law. I obey God's commandments. I obey the commandments of Jesus. In obeying Jesus' commandments I am obeying God's commandments. In following His instruction to keep and teach the commandments I am observing, obeying, keeping the Law, Torah. I do not see any other way to interpret Matthew 5:18 NASB.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    When a Christian believes in the New Covenant and becomes a Jew who observes the Torah, does He also observe or believe in the New Covenant or does He only then observe or believe in the New Covenant or would it have been better for him if he only observes or believes the New Covenant? I do not know in my life if I learned or knew about the new covenant before the Law of Moses.

    I stated that I obey God. Then I dealt with if I obey or observe God's Law. I obey God's commandments. I obey the commandments of Jesus. In obeying Jesus' commandments I am obeying God's commandments. In following His instruction to keep and teach the commandments I am observing, obeying, keeping the Law, Torah. I do not see any other way to interpret Matthew 5:18 NASB.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    You claim you keep all of God's Laws, and yet we know Jesus is the only ONE to actually do so. You are not Jesus, are you? I'm sure you know you aren't. So, when you attempt to keep the whole law, you are required to keep all of it without offending in even one point. THAT is the problem with the Law.

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    The fact is that the PURPOSE of the LAW was NEVER meant to make men righteous. It was NEVER meant to justify any man. It was NEVER meant to give LIFE. Since you refuse to understand the PURPOSE of the Law, and attempt to keep the Law, you are not subjecting yourself to the very RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

    Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    In your desire to keep the Law, as the Jews did, you are REFUSING to submit to the very RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.....what God requires, which is faith. The obedience of Faith is how we submit to the Righteousness of God. In other words, you are out of submission to God by putting obedience to the Law above Faith in God.

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    TOL Legend Jacob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You claim you keep all of God's Laws, and yet we know Jesus is the only ONE to actually do so. You are not Jesus, are you? I'm sure you know you aren't. So, when you attempt to keep the whole law, you are required to keep all of it without offending in even one point. THAT is the problem with the Law.

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    The fact is that the PURPOSE of the LAW was NEVER meant to make men righteous. It was NEVER meant to justify any man. It was NEVER meant to give LIFE. Since you refuse to understand the PURPOSE of the Law, and attempt to keep the Law, you are not subjecting yourself to the very RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

    Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    In your desire to keep the Law, as the Jews did, you are REFUSING to submit to the very RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.....what God requires, which is faith. The obedience of Faith is how we submit to the Righteousness of God. In other words, you are out of submission to God by putting obedience to the Law above Faith in God.
    I do not do this. I have faith in God. My obedience is the result or outcome of my faith. I obey in faith. I obey because of faith. The question is if faith is obedience and if faith is a result, product, or outcome, of the Spirit of God or the work of the Spirit of God or the work of the Spirit of God in the believer or in the life of the believer.

    There is no problem with the Law.

    I can tell you that I recognize that there are commandments that I do not keep. But there are commandments that I keep that others do not. It is of no consequence. I experience or receive blessing in keeping God's commandments, though criticized by others for doing so, but however I know that I am not saved, justified, or sanctified by doing so or by so doing.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I do not do this. I have faith in God. My obedience is the result or outcome of my faith. I obey in faith. I obey because of faith. The question is if faith is obedience and if faith is a result, product, or outcome, of the Spirit of God or the work of the Spirit of God or the work of the Spirit of God in the believer or in the life of the believer.

    There is no problem with the Law.
    You are right here. If you have faith and receive Grace, then you will do the good and avoid sin.

    It is when your faith is weak and without Grace you try to obey the law, you always will fail.

    James is looking at those who claim to be saved, for a sign that the Holy Spirit is guiding them away from sin.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    You are right here. If you have faith and receive Grace, then you will do the good and avoid sin.

    It is when your faith is weak and without Grace you try to obey the law, you always will fail.

    James is looking at those who claim to be saved, for a sign that the Holy Spirit is guiding them away from sin.
    Who is James? Are you talking about the book of James in the Bible?

    Thank you for your post.

    Do you sin? If you sin, confess your sin to God. Repent, turn from your sin and turn to God for salvation, God's grace, and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus and in His name and you will have victory over sin, the world, the flesh, and the devil, satan. To avoid sin is different than if you are trying you are lying. If trying is lying, what was the person trying? To obey God's commandments, His commands? There is no fault there. Obeying and trying to obey are different though, so I recognize that trying has a component of failure, failing, and therefore lying if you are saying you are doing something that you are not (your trying is not good enough). Salvation is not by works. If you understand God's commands, His commandments, you will understand that obeying them is not difficult. In fact, the Apostle John says that God's commandments are not burdensome.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Who is James? Are you talking about the book of James in the Bible?

    Thank you for your post.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    James and Paul both teach that salvation is by faith alone and also that faith is never alone but shows itself to be alive by deeds of love that express a believer's thanks to God for the free gift of salvation by faith in Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    James and Paul both teach that salvation is by faith alone and also that faith is never alone but shows itself to be alive by deeds of love that express a believer's thanks to God for the free gift of salvation by faith in Jesus.
    It makes sense to have faith in God and Jesus both.
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Over 3000 post club beameup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    If you are living by rules, laws, or religion, you are NOT living by faith. Rules, laws and religion are about you and what you are doing, it is subjective. Those that are living by faith are living by what God has done in his Son Jesus Christ, it is objective (outside of us)
    Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
    but the just shall live by his faith. - Hab 2:4
    Unfortunately, Jews translate it "faithfulness". That would be "faithfulness" to Judaism.
    The "bare minimum" would be simply claiming that you are genetically Jewish, therefore you are "chosen" by God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beameup View Post
    Unfortunately, Jews translate it "faithfulness". That would be "faithfulness" to Judaism.
    The "bare minimum" would be simply claiming that you are genetically Jewish, therefore you are "chosen" by God.

    It appears to me that is where Jacob is at. He is trusting in Judaism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    It appears to me that is where Jacob is at. He is trusting in Judaism.
    I do not know what you mean by that. My trust is in God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, the God of Israel, the Jew, and the Gentile.

    Is Judaism a faith or a religion? Is it something else? I do not know. I have heard both.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I do not know what you mean by that. My trust is in God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, the God of Israel, the Jew, and the Gentile.

    Is Judaism a faith or a religion? Is it something else? I do not know. I have heard both.

    Shalom.

    Jacob

    Judaism is a religion. It is a religion of the law. The Bible plainly teaches that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15 also Colossians 2:14.

    Living according to the law is a denial of the Gospel and justification by faith. In the Gospel Jesus, in our name and on our behalf fulfills the law for us, Matthew 5:18 and then atones for our sins, 1 John 2:2. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we stand before God's holy court as perfect and complete in Jesus Christ. The law has been fulfilled, sin has been atoned for, we are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Judaism is a religion. It is a religion of the law. The Bible plainly teaches that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15 also Colossians 2:14.

    Living according to the law is a denial of the Gospel and justification by faith. In the Gospel Jesus, in our name and on our behalf fulfills the law for us, Matthew 5:18 and then atones for our sins, 1 John 2:2. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we stand before God's holy court as perfect and complete in Jesus Christ. The law has been fulfilled, sin has been atoned for, we are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.
    I know that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets and that I am to keep and teach the commandments. Matthew 5:17 NASB. Matthew 5:19 NASB.

    As for Judaism, you say that it is a religion of the law. Why do you say that it is a religion? Why do you say that it is a religion of the law? I have nothing against God's Law, Israel, and I see no reason to have anything against Judaism either.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I know that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets and that I am to keep and teach the commandments. Matthew 5:17 NASB. Matthew 5:19 NASB.

    As for Judaism, you say that it is a religion of the law. Why do you say that it is a religion? Why do you say that it is a religion of the law? I have nothing against God's Law, Israel, and I see no reason to have anything against Judaism either.

    Shalom.

    Jacob

    Then you don't believe Paul, do you? You are a typical law loving Jew.

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