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Thread: Not much to say...

  1. #91
    Journeyman Zenn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    ... as they haven't wondered from Christ's Words and Meanings.
    I presume you mean wandered, in that there are many Words and Meanings put forth as Christ's about which I do wonder.

    Zenn

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    "Nasty", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
    Is "good" also in the eye of the beholder?

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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    One is saved by enduring? Enduring in what, exactly?
    I've provided the scripture quotes, musterion, weren't those scriptures enough to answer your question?

    Zenn

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  6. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    For Jesus to call the Pharisees "whited sepulchres (sic) filled with dead men's bones" might be considered "nasty" to some.
    Last time I checked, you weren't Jesus.

    Zenn

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  8. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Believers are to judge all things. Some people really hate that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenn View Post
    It would seem, though that you think people are things.
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I don't think....I KNOW. It's what Paul is talking about when he tells us to judge all things.
    Well that's quite a leap of "knowing". Especially when the nouns Paul uses are neuter to speak of things, and NOT people. It's rather an abuse of language to transmogrify words that speak of things into words that speak of people. Your teaching may be right, but your proof-scripture does not say this nor lend it support. In that passage Paul is not talking about people, but about "spiritual things" i.e. doctrines.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    We are judging men.
    No, there is only one who will come to judge the quick and the dead. We (or at least those of us who are spiritual) are to judge the teachings of others - the things they believe and teach to be true - not the actual people.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    We are to recognize and expose the false prophets and teachers among us.
    No. Not the prophets. Not the teachers. But the prophecies and the teachings. (Those things.) Now you based your teaching on 1 Cor. 2:13-16, but indeed Paul is writing about doctrines or things (again using words with a neuter gender). Words written to indicate people are not expressed as neuter but rather have male or female endings. So the language itself disagrees with your erroneous conclusion. But please realize I do not judge YOU when I point out that this thing you teach cannot be linguistically supported in the Greek text.

    Spiritual "Things". Like - offering blood sacrifices to the gods will make the crops grow well this season. Spiritual "Things" like - say five Hail Marys. Spiritual things like "Hell is eternal conscious torment in pain". A spiritual thing like "Circumcision saves us." And there are many spiritual things like... transubstantiation, rapture, baptism, inerrancy, indulgences, limbo, prevenient grace. These are the things about which Paul speaks.

    You may not wish to depart from what is actually written, "ο δε πνευματικος ανακρινει μεν παντα αυτος δε υπ ουδενος ανακρινεται"

    Zenn

    PS: One example of a spiritual "thing" I'd like to mention is that there is a denomination that forbids the use of musical instruments in their worship services. A capella singing is permitted, but they teach instruments are of the devil and so are not holy for services.

    PPS: As I live in Amishland PA, I certainly know of a people who preach a spiritual truth (to them) that electric lights are sinful. You by all means are welcome to judge that teaching.

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  10. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Now I'm no slouch when it comes to the Bible but I have just been introduced to a rather interesting conundrum with Matthew and Luke's Genealogies. (I'm sure I looked at this before years ago but can't remember now). If you're interested in perhaps joining in and finding the solution (if there is one) you'd be most welcome.
    I very much appreciate the invite. That was the same thread that cobra invited me over here to join.

    I will see what I can contribute as time provides. (And my newbie shackles permit.)

    Zenn

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  12. #97
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenn View Post
    Well that's quite a leap of "knowing". Especially when the nouns Paul uses are neuter to speak of things, and NOT people. It's rather an abuse of language to transmogrify words that speak of things into words that speak of people. Your teaching may be right, but your proof-scripture does not say this nor lend it support. In that passage Paul is not talking about people, but about "spiritual things" i.e. doctrines.
    I know you. You have come to sow discord. :

    We are to try the spirits, whether they be of God....or, whether they be like you, false prophets.
    Last I checked, false prophets are men.

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


    Be that as it may, I'm used to answering a fool according to his folly around here.

    All the deep things of God are revealed to us by His Spirit. So let's see what that might include. "The things of a man"...that the spirit of man knows. I see nothing there that limits that to a man's "doctrine". Is the man's spirit that of the world, or of God?

    1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    1 Cor. 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    What is freely given to us? The fruit of the Spirit, gifts of the Spirit (including discernment). The ability to examine and detect the spirit of the natural man.... Yes, that is exactly what Paul is speaking of here.

    The spiritual things that the natural man cannot know....they are foolishness to him. And you're telling me Paul is not telling us to examine and discern the spirit of the natural man? Are you telling me that the spiritual man is not to judge the natural man? Are you interested in actually reading and understanding what the verses say, or just rambling on about the Greek?

    2 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

    Therefore, since you only have your Greek, and not the mind of Christ, you'll have to take a seat on the back of this bus.

    2 Cor. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

    No, there is only one who will come to judge the quick and the dead. We (or at least those of us who are spiritual) are to judge the teachings of others - the things they believe and teach to be true - not the actual people.
    We ARE to judge whether they be natural men of the flesh or spiritual men. Therefore, we, who have the mind of Christ, are judging men. Look up the Greek meaning of "judge" instead of "things", you might be better off.


    No. Not the prophets. Not the teachers. But the prophecies and the teachings. (Those things.) Now you based your teaching on 1 Cor. 2:13-16, but indeed Paul is writing about doctrines or things (again using words with a neuter gender). Words written to indicate people are not expressed as neuter but rather have male or female endings. So the language itself disagrees with your erroneous conclusion. But please realize I do not judge YOU when I point out that this thing you teach cannot be linguistically supported in the Greek text.
    A good thing for you, too, because the natural man is not to judge the spiritual man, and I can see why.

    Spoiler
    Spiritual "Things". Like - offering blood sacrifices to the gods will make the crops grow well this season. Spiritual "Things" like - say five Hail Marys. Spiritual things like "Hell is eternal conscious torment in pain". A spiritual thing like "Circumcision saves us." And there are many spiritual things like... transubstantiation, rapture, baptism, inerrancy, indulgences, limbo, prevenient grace. These are the things about which Paul speaks.

    You may not wish to depart from what is actually written, "ο δε πνευματικος ανακρινει μεν παντα αυτος δε υπ ουδενος ανακρινεται"

    Zenn

    PS: One example of a spiritual "thing" I'd like to mention is that there is a denomination that forbids the use of musical instruments in their worship services. A capella singing is permitted, but they teach instruments are of the devil and so are not holy for services.

    PPS: As I live in Amishland PA, I certainly know of a people who preach a spiritual truth (to them) that electric lights are sinful. You by all means are welcome to judge that teaching.

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  14. #98
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenn View Post
    Last time I checked, you weren't Jesus.

    Zenn
    Last time I checked, you were ignorant. Nothing has changed.

  15. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Some of us on TOL like to know up front what someone's gospel of salvation is.
    Ahh, so you are impatient and demand the instant gratification for which Americans are so well known.

    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Let me add that there are many here who try to hide what they believe about the Gospel.
    I'm tempted to ask which Gospel, but I don't think that's an appropriate subject for the purposes of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    They do this for many reasons: they know they have an unorthodox one that will marginalize them...
    Interesting. Unless one is Greek Orthodox, all gospels might be considered "unorthodox" no? And I think I can say here, Orthodoxy truly is in the eye of the beholder.

    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    ...mere religionists (sic) who don't actually know how to be saved...
    Well the obvious conclusion, then, is that you DO know how to be saved. So again, why are you asking me? To make a quick judgment? To dance in the cotillion of the stereotype?

    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    ..or they're manipulative cultists or atheistic trolls who are here to deceive and spread dissent.
    And what of those non-atheistic trolls?

    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    So while I can't tell for sure what puzzles you, if you should happen to be offended by being asked how one is saved, well, it would say more about you than about the ones asking the question.
    Not really. It's kind of like the Christian equivalent of dogs sniffing each other. I think I shall decline out of common decency.

    Soteriology is a rather involved study, but it would seem you think such can be summarized in a sound bite. The doctrines of Soterilogy and Ecclesiastical Authority define the three major branches of Christianity. But I'm sure you know this. Suffice it to say here that I am not Catholic, nor am I Protestant.

    Zenn

    PPS: Here's a sound bite for you. A person is saved when the spirit of unbelief is removed from them by God.

    PPPS: (But of course the wise man would wonder, "Unbelief of what?")


    Since I've now been deigned worthy to edit my own posts, I've rephrased the sentence that seems to have offended certain dainty ears, although I can't possibly fathom why the word b*** would be considered vulger. My English ain't that badly. And my friends would be rather astonished that anyone had considered me vulgar.
    Last edited by Zenn; December 22nd, 2017 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Editing to remove suggestive and vulgar content.

  16. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Evasiveness with a hint of hostility. Not off to a good start.
    Judgement with an attitude. You must have been doing this for awhile.

    Zenn

    PS: I would, though, challenge your definition of hostility. Dust off that dictionary my good man. I'm not the one who is "MAD".

  17. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Seems enamored with itself.
    And just because I turned you down for a date?


    Meow.

  18. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenn View Post
    Ahh, so you are impatient and demand the instant gratification for which Americans are so well known.
    You will be called non-believer, unsaved, heretic, cult and so on if you don't agree with their claims.

  19. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    As musterion alluded to above.. how about letting us know where you stand in order to avoid having to tease these things out over a long course of your future posts:
    Mr. Religion,

    Understanding requires an alignment of definitional frameworks. As an example, I have been in conversations where two people are smiling and happy, thinking they are in total agreement about faith. And yet I know of five different definitions of faith that are in common use today. It used to be somewhat amusing when I would step into such a conversation and ask a few questions to clarify what the first person truly meant by "faith" only to see (the expected) shadow of confusion and then doubt cross the face of the other. For they truly held to different definitions of what "faith" meant. And while they may have parted in enmity, they at least hadn't parted in delusion.

    Now, though, it's no longer amusing. It's just sad.

    Personally, though, I don't care if it offends your sense of propriety, needing to "tease these things out" and I'm sure you couldn't care less to know where I stand. I decline to answer out of decency, in that I have no idea what your definitional framework might be. And until I am quite sure I know what you mean by "faith" (or any other subject matter, e.g. salvation, or "Word of God" etc.) I decline to be baited into being rude.

    Schöne Grüße,
    Zenn

  20. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Getting the feeling that Z...i dunno...maybe has been here before.
    Ahhh, right away, a leap to an unfortunately Wrong conclusion.

    I have never been to this site before, and it was only as a favor to Cobra that I deigned to stop by. I have found most Christians to be really nasty, and at the moment you're doing nothing to dissuade me of that impression.

    Zenn

    PS: But I am curious about whom you might think shares a commonality of style with me. I would like to meet this person.

  21. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Sometimes.
    Well then I will choose to feel honored.

    Zenn

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