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Thread: Is God Three?

  1. #211
    Over 5000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    None of this is incompatible with the Trinity doctrine.
    I am not suggesting that it is, seeing the basis for my post is not a trinity debate.

    However, to address your statement, it is clear that scripture clearly does not teach that God is a trinity.

    If God was a trinity, He (or is it they) would have made it clear.

    God is not shy about who He is.

    He is one, not one of three or three in one.

    Take for instance Genesis 1:26-27

    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    which is a favorite verse trins use to "prove" the trinity.

    Please show me where "trinity" or "three in one" or "Jesus is God" or "Jesus is there with God" or just the number "three" is in those verses?

    what is the difference between using verse 26 to "prove" the trinity and me asking you

    Are you still beating your wife?
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Red face All is within the context of ONE...........

    ~*~*~

    God's oneness of Being is his constitition....and the natural consequent of his Being (prior to multiplication, differentiation, creative expression). 'God' is the Infinite ONE, the ALL, the Original, the HEART of all. - from this original infinity, this 'echad',....all multiples and numbers exponentially extend.

    A Trinity is a conceptual model of the original Godhead in its co-creative economical function and government. Nothing wrong with it as a conceptual model, and you can personify or personalize different aspects of God's Being if you like. 'God' is the Source, essence, creative intelligence and universal CONTEXT of all life and consciousness. (it is beyond number yet includes all numbers).

    All multiples, all numbers fall back into their ROOT-source, the essential NO-Thing. From that nothingness, is a formless ONE, then enters into form, a numerical identity of sorts, or value, from which all other qualities and quantifications derive and extend into exisxtence, encompassing an infinitude of qualities and quantities.

    The SHEMA ever holds as a truth revealed within Judaism, no matter what religious tradition or spiritual path you embrace or explore, since all derives and inter-relates within The ONE.



    imagesCAHGZGNN.jpg

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    Journeyman Tigger 2's Avatar
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    JudgeRightly:
    "See the post immediately above yours. It has the exact wording of Hebrew 1:8-9.
    It does not say what you are trying to make it say."
    It does not have the exact wording of Heb. 1:8.


    And it's not what I am saying, it's the words of the honest interlinear I have, and the words of the trinitarian scholars I have quoted.

    Apparently you don't know that when translators put words in brackets [ ], it means those words were not in the original text, but added as the translator understood (or wanted) it to be. (Some Bibles use italics rather than brackets to show translator-added words. The KJV, for example, uses italicized words.)

    So, looking at the interlinear you posted for Heb. 1:8, you will see that 'is' is always in brackets [is]. And ὁ is the NT Greek masculine singular definite article ('the') and as shown in the more literal interlinear link below is more properly translated as 'the' instead of 'O' before theos. Since the verbs ('is') are absent in the Greek text for Heb. 1:8, the translators are free to place them where they wish. And can you guess where trinitarian translators would normally place them?

    That's why it is so unusual and meaningful that so many trinitarian scholars and translators have placed them as in my post above!

    It would be the honest thing to do to admit the truth of this matter.

    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

    and

    http://fdier.free.fr/Wescott_Hort_Interlinear.pdf

    JudgeRightly wrote:
    "If you can refute the image, then I will reconsider my position on the Trinity."
    The actual unedited NT text refutes your image and your interpretation (as being the only honest interpretation).

    Last edited by Tigger 2; January 12th, 2018 at 03:13 PM.

  4. #214
    Over 5000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Literally the NT Greek manuscripts read at Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age”.

    The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for Ps. 45:6 (which is being quoted in Heb. 1:8):
    “God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)

    (And the revised 1991 ed. of the NAB actually translates Ps. 45:6, 7 as “Your throne, O god.”) The NAB (1970 ed., St. Joseph Edition) goes on to explain in its footnote for Ps. 45, 7 (6), however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [Jehovah].”

    Now we’re getting close to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

    Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

    Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

    “God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

    University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

    An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

    And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

    The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

    NSB - God is your throne

    Mace - "God is thy throne….”

    Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

    Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

    The point is that there are two grammatically honest ways for Heb. 1:8 to be translated. When even a number of respected trinitarian scholars and translators choose the non-trinitarian version (as above), we can be pretty sure that it is the probable meaning intended by the original writer.
    The concept that "thy throne is God" fits rather well with the promise made to Abraham in Genesis 15:1

    After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.


    God did not say that He would reward him with honor or riches or some other thing, but that He, God, would be Abe's exceeding great reward.

    Even so, God would be God's son's reward
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

  5. #215
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    JudgeRightly:

    It does not have the exact wording of Heb. 1:8.

    And it's not what I am saying, it's the words of the honest interlinear I have, and the words of the trinitarian scholars I have quoted.

    Apparently you don't know that when translators put words in brackets [ ], it means those words were not in the original text, but added as the translator understood (or wanted) it to be. (Some Bibles use italics rather than brackets to show translator-added words. The KJV, for example, uses italicized words.)

    So, looking at the interlinear you posted for Heb. 1:8, you will see that 'is' is always in brackets [is]. And ὁ is the NT Greek masculine singular definite article ('the') and as shown in the more literal interlinear link below is more properly translated as 'the' instead of 'O' before theos. Since the verbs ('is') are absent in the Greek text for Heb. 1:8, the translators are free to place them where they wish. And can you guess where trinitarian translators would normally place them?


    Duh. "The god" (ho theos) is specifying "God," not "a god." And yet, that still doesn't make the verse say what you were saying above.

    That's why it is so unusual and meaningful that so many trinitarian scholars and translators have placed them as in my post above!

    It would be the honest thing to do to admit the truth of this matter.

    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

    and

    http://fdier.free.fr/Wescott_Hort_Interlinear.pdf

    JudgeRightly wrote:

    The actual unedited NT text refutes your image and your interpretation (as being the only honest interpretation).



    8πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεός εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος ῥάβδος εὐθύτητος ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου

    9ἠγάπησας δικαιοσύνην καὶ ἐμίσησας ἀνομίαν διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέν σε ὁ θεός ὁ θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου

    8 pros de ton huion ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos pabdos euthytetos he pabdos tes basileias sou

    9 egapesas dikaiosunen kai emisesas anomian dia touto echrisen se ho theos ho theos sou elaion agalliaseos para tous metochous sou

    8 unto however the Son the throne of you the God [is]to the age of ages sceptre righteousness the sceptre of the kingdom of you

    9 you have loved righteousness and have hated wickedness because of this has anointed you the God the God of you with[the]oil of exultation above the companions of you

    Yet you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Literally the NT Greek manuscripts read at Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age”.

    The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for Ps. 45:6 (which is being quoted in Heb. 1:8):
    “God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)

    (And the revised 1991 ed. of the NAB actually translates Ps. 45:6, 7 as “Your throne, O god.”) The NAB (1970 ed., St. Joseph Edition) goes on to explain in its footnote for Ps. 45, 7 (6), however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [Jehovah].”

    Now we’re getting close to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

    Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

    Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

    “God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

    University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

    An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

    And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

    The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

    NSB - God is your throne

    Mace - "God is thy throne….”

    Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

    Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

    The point is that there are two grammatically honest ways for Heb. 1:8 to be translated. When even a number of respected trinitarian scholars and translators choose the non-trinitarian version (as above), we can be pretty sure that it is the probable meaning intended by the original writer.
    You can't change what scripture says just because you don't like who translated it. You have to read what is said, and read the direct translation. The original Greek literally says, "the throne of you the god..."

    Or simply: "your throne, God, ..."

    I honestly don't see how it could be translated any other way.
    Last edited by JudgeRightly; January 15th, 2018 at 05:14 AM.

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    Journeyman Tigger 2's Avatar
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    I fear you must be a very poor reader. Besides repeating the interlinear over and over and over... you cannot see that all the verbs ['is'] in it have brackets around them as I clearly pointed out to you. You have also been clearly told that bracketed words are not actually in the NT text but added by the translator simply because that is how he WANTS IT TO READ!

    You don't seem to be able to read these clear statements.

    Even some Trinitarian translators, as you have also been told, insert the verb 'is' after "the throne of you." Either you are a terrible reader or you willingly refuse to understand.

    "Oh God" is literally 'the God.'

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    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    I fear you must be a very poor reader.
    I'm not. You're just not hearing what I'm saying.

    Besides repeating the interlinear over and over and over... you cannot see that all the verbs ['is'] in it have brackets around them as I clearly pointed out to you.
    I am well aware that the word "is" is inserted into the text. I get it. However, that's not the point I'm making.

    My point is that you can't make the verse say "your throne is the God" because 1) a throne (even a metaphorical one) cannot be God, only God can be God, that's idolatry, and 2) we don't see anywhere else where a throne is called "the God" (correct me if I'm wrong, please), and 3) you'd be a hypocrite, because I could then accuse you of adding "is" between "throne" and "God" simply because that's the way you want it to read.

    Words have meaning, Tigger. Let's consider the meaning of each of the proposed phrases for the Greek phrase, "the throne of you the God of age of the ages."

    If it's as you say, "the throne of you is God of age of the ages," it calls the Son's throne God, thereby placing the throne not only above the Son, but equal with the Father.

    If it's as I say, "your throne, the God, is of age of the ages," then it places the Son on equal footing with the Father, because the Father would be calling the Son "God," and His throne would be eternal.

    See, you say "oh, the trinitarians translated the Bible in a way that fits their doctrine.

    But consider that you're wrong, for a moment.

    If you're WRONG, then you are not only blaspheming the Father by calling Him a liar because He called the Son "God," and instead should have called the Son's throne "God" but you're also blaspheming the Son by robbing Him of his rightful claim of Godhood.

    If I'm the one that's wrong, then I'm calling the Son God when He shouldn't be called God, which is idolatry. Yet my position is consistent with the rest of Scripture, while yours is not, which is evidence towards my position being right, and yours being wrong.

    You have also been clearly told that bracketed words are not actually in the NT text but added by the translator simply because that is how he WANTS IT TO READ!
    Have you ever considered that it's not simply because that's the way the translator wants the verse to be read, but it's because that's what the verse is actually saying, and that the added words don't change the meaning?

    Look, if I said in Greek, "goat of you Tigger old," it could easily and logically be translated "your goat, tigger, is old," and it wouldn't change the meaning of the sentence. What you're trying to do, however, is change it to "your goat is Tigger old." It doesn't work.

    You don't seem to be able to read these clear statements.

    Even some Trinitarian translators, as you have also been told, insert the verb 'is' after "the throne of you." Either you are a terrible reader or you willingly refuse to understand.
    I find it hard to believe that a translator would correctly say that a throne is THE God.

    "Oh God" is literally 'the God.'
    DUH! That's what I said in my previous post, you numbskull. Or were you not paying attention? Because if you weren't, then I would have reason to think that you weren't paying attention while reading the rest of my post. Please pay attention to what I'm saying, so that you can stop repeating yourself.

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  11. #218
    BANNED freelight's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Hebrews 1:8

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    I find it hard to believe that a translator would correctly say that a throne is THE God.
    Still the passage concerned confirms the Messiah's confession of David, exalting 'God' alone and his 'throne' as the throne of righteousness, and since the Messiah is the representative of 'God', the Messiah's throne IS of course God's throne,.....the Messiah is 'God' only in the sense of being God's AGENT.

    The OT is full of indications that various places or peoples may be called 'God' (elohim) as attestations/appellations describing God's character, but this does not make those places, objects or people into the actual 'God Almighty', since only the One Universal Infinite SPIRIT-Presence is the Universal Father of all, while all other divine beings, angels and sons of God, are just that....SONS of the Universal Father. Heb. 1:8 does NOT prove or even indicate that Jesus is 'true God', but only referring to Jesus as the Agent and Agency of God! - there is no need or necessity to make Jesus into God the Father, even if you put an orthodox Trinitarian SPIN on this.

    ALSO,....it could be said that 'God' is the Messiah's throne, since a 'throne' is an emblem or symbol of a King's rule, glory and dominion. Truly 'God' is the power and authority of the Messiah, and can only be 'God' ALONE, - the Messiah, ONLY as He stands, serves and REPRESENTS 'God', is 'God'. Since 'God' operates THRU His Messiah-SON, the Son speaks for the Father. And we just go back to the circular issue of the Father and the Son being ONE,....no matter how that is interpreted. All that is essential here is that the Messiah-Son represents and speaks for God, that is all that is essential. Any other details or preferred 'Christologies' are just, personal opinions, beliefs or preferred relational constructs entertained.

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    Journeyman Tigger 2's Avatar
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    JR wrote:
    I find it hard to believe that a translator would correctly say that a throne is THE God.
    Is God ever called “unlikely” things in a figurative sense that are as equally strange as calling him “a throne”? Every Bible student of any experience knows that He is, repeatedly!

    Many times he is called someone’s “Rock” (e.g., Ps. 78:35).
    He is called a “fortress” (e.g., Ps. 91:2).
    He is called a “lamp” in 2 Samuel 22:29.
    He is called a “crown” (“in that day will Jehovah of hosts become a crown of glory, unto the residue of his people” - Is. 28:5, ASV).
    Jehovah is called “our dwelling place” - Ps. 90:1, KJV.
    And “Jehovah is my ... song” - Ps. 118:14.

    Also notice Ps. 60:7, 8 “Ephraim is my helmet, Judah my scepter, Moab is my washbasin”, NIV. And in Is. 22:23 we find Eliakim, whom Jehovah said he would call and commit authority to (Is. 22:20, 21), called a “throne” (“and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house,” RSV).

    A. Translations of Heb. 1:8 by trinitarians:
    “God is your throne” - AT (Dr. Goodspeed)
    “God is thy throne” - Mo (Dr. Moffatt)
    “God is your throne” - Byington
    “God is your throne” - Dr. Barclay
    “God is thy throne” - Dr. Westcott
    “God is thy throne” - A.T. Robertson (Alternate translation)
    “God is thy throne” - Dr. Young (Alt.)
    “God is thy throne” - RSV (Alt.)
    “God is your throne” - NRSV (Alt.)
    “God is thy throne” - NEB (Alt.)
    “Thy throne is God” - ASV (Alt.)
    "Your kingdom, O God, will last"; or "God is your kingdom." - GNT (f.n.)

    B. Translations of Ps. 45:6 (quoted at Heb. 1:8) by trinitarians:
    “Your Divine throne” - RSV
    “Your throne is like God’s throne” - NEB
    “God is your throne” - Byington
    “The kingdom that God has given you” - GNB
    “God has enthroned you” - REB
    “Your throne is from God” - NJB
    "Your throne, O god, stands forever;" - NAB ('91) - "the king, in courtly language, is called 'god,' i.e., more than human, representing God to the people." - note in NAB (2010).

    "Your divine throne is eternal and everlasting. - CEB
    "God is your throne for ever and for ever," - Barclay
    “Your throne is a throne of God” - NRSV (Alt.)
    “Thy throne is the throne of God” - ASV (Alt.)
    "Possibly the king's throne is called God's throne because he is God's appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as 'god'." - Ps. 45:6 note in the New International Version Study Bible (NIVSB).

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    Over 1500 post club Elia's Avatar
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    Bs"d

    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

    "Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

    "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





    "And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

    “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

    "Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

    "Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

    "Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

    "Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

    "Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

    "Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

    "‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version





    "Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

    "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

    "A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

    "Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

    "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

    "and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation





    "You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

    "thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

    "Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

    "You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

    "*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

    "It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

    "You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

    "You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

    "You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible



    So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



    "And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

    "And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

    "And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

    "And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible
    Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillnlovewithJesu View Post
    .

    Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    Php 2:5 G1063 For - G5426 consider - G5124 this - G1722 in - G5213 yourselves - G3739 whosoever - G2532 also - in G1722 - Christ G5547 - Jesus: G2424


    Php 2:6 Who G3739 - was G5225 - in G1722 -
    morphē / Morph / form / mor-fay' G3444 - God, G2316 -
    thought G2233 - no G3756 - robbery G725 - to be G1511 equally G2470 - God: G2316
    SEE THE LIE............
    The Point is that Trinitarians do lie. They have been lying for 2000 Years.

    There is no Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.
    This is a false translation. The Greek Word G1063
    Γάρ / gar gar - is not the word or meaning
    ………… L E T ………………..

    The Greek word - “ F o r “ - is the very first word that begins Php 2:5
    F O R - primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.
    There is no L E T in the Hebrew or Greek where the translators slipped it in falsely into the translation - over Two Thousand Times.
    2000 times. It is slipped in sand it is never in the original.
    You keep repeating The English King James - A Jesuit Copy Cat Translation
    THE FACT IS -_ The very, very first word Here in - Php Chapter 3 verse 5 is N O T - the word - “ Let “ ‘
    Meaning - -= - 5. { Let } this mind be in you………..Ect.

    But _ - There is no L E T In the Greek manuscript text in – Php. 3: 5

    The Very first Greek word in Php. 3: 5 is the Greek word - γάρ - Gar "
    It is - Greek # 1063 Meaning “ For " F O R ____________________________----_________________________

    This Greek word - γάρ - Gar " It is - The Greek # 1063 Meaning “ For " F O R
    or it can sometimes mean Because - if there is a clause. .

    Here are eXamples of the word that the Translators are claiming
    is the word L E T.
    But 2000 times it is used correctly as the Greek word meaning F O R.
    But in this instance the Translators LIED and switched out the for F O R and inserted the word L E T.
    __________________________________________________ ____________
    The following words in the eXample verses that say and mean - F O R,
    This is not the word or meaning of - L E T.

    But the Translators want You to believe that this word L E T - Could be related to the word F O R in the following verses.
    Following Verses Rev 22:18 For G1063 I testify unto every man G3956
    Rev 17:17 For Greek 1063 God G2316 hath put in G1519 their G848 hearts G2588
    Rev 16:14 For Greek 1063 they are G1526 the spirits G4151 of devils, G1142
    Rev 9:19 For Greek 1063 their G848 power G1849 is G1526 in G1722 their G848 mouth, G4750
    Jud 1:4 For Greek 1063 there are certain G5100 men G444 crept in unawares, G3921
    3Jn 1:7 For Greek 1063 his name's sake G5228 G846 G3686 they went forth, G1831
    Mat 1:18 When as G1063 his G846 mother G3384 Mary G3137 was espoused G3423 to Joseph, G2501
    Mat 7:29 For G1063 he taught G2258 G1321 them G846 as G5613 one having G2192 authority,
    Mat 12:8 For G1063 the G3588 Son G5207 of man G444 is G2076 Lord G2962

    Mat 10:35 For G1063 I am come G2064 to set a man at variance G1369 G444
    Mat 15:4 For G1063 God G2316 commanded, G1781 saying, G3004 Honor G5091 thy G4675 father G3962 and G2532 mother: G3384
    This Greek word γάρ - Gar is the word meaning - “ For " -

    F O R appears over Two Thousand ( * 2000 ) times in the Greek Manuscripts and this is the eXact same Greek word that begins The Php 3: Verse 5.
    It is not LET - / L E T ! -
    The Greek word γάρ - Gar is not - L E T

    Php 3: Verse 5 begins with the Greek word ( G1063 γάρ Gar }
    This Greek word γάρ - Gar - is the word For - “ For " - F O R appears over Two Thousand ( * 2000 ) times in the Greek Manuscripts ) it’s very first word just eXactly as I posted in the previous 4 posts already.
    ​................................................. ...........
    Php 2:5 For - consider - this - in - yourselves - whomsoever - also - in - Christ - Jesus:
    REMEMBERR the Greek language used the two words AND and ALSO as the same eXact meaning.


    ​Php 2:5 For - consider - this - in - yourselves - whomsoever - also - is in - Christ - Jesus:

    whomsoever - also - in - Christ - Here Jesus: is a CALLING for all in the FUTURE - who are not Yet entered INTO Christ Yaahoshua..

    ​This is the meaning of the message to YOU - the current disciples yourselves and also whomsoever also may come into Christ - Jesus:
    Good info...

    You switched to Ph 3:5 instead of 2:5 did you mean to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    Bright Raven's point was that the doctrine of the Trinity was believed and taught long before 325 AD.

    He wasn't proving it, rather, disproving the OP.


    Sent from my iPhone using TOL
    Bright Raven hasn't gotten the correct understanding of what was going on. Yes, the pagan-influenced doctrine of the Trinity reared its ugly head toward the end of the first century and continued to be argued about for the next 200 years and more, spurred on by the "wolves" that entered in among the true church even when the Apostles were walking the earth (Acts 20:29,30). It was a way of asserting control over people, and continued to be a very important POLITICAL subject to try and polarize the constituent citizens. The Trinity was not a solid doctrine until after 325 A.D., and even then it wasn't as we know it today for another 500 years. The truth is, Jesus' being equal to the Father was debated back and forth, and never taught as an accepted doctrine in the church until Constantine settled the matter for political reasons, in 325.

    Tigger has not been disproved. His research is sound.

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    Red face The infinite One I Am

    ~*~*~

    God is One, eternally, infinitely, everpresently

    One may divide, differentiate, dissect, personalize, fragment, allocate, diversify, segment, extend, expand, expound, confound the Oneness of Deity all they like.....Deity ever maintains its original indivisible essence.

    'God' is also not confined, restricted or limited to your religious tradition or culture, since 'God' is infinite

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    Bright Raven hasn't gotten the correct understanding of what was going on. Yes, the pagan-influenced doctrine of the Trinity reared its ugly head toward the end of the first century and continued to be argued about for the next 200 years and more, spurred on by the "wolves" that entered in among the true church even when the Apostles were walking the earth (Acts 20:29,30). It was a way of asserting control over people, and continued to be a very important POLITICAL subject to try and polarize the constituent citizens. The Trinity was not a solid doctrine until after 325 A.D., and even then it wasn't as we know it today for another 500 years. The truth is, Jesus' being equal to the Father was debated back and forth, and never taught as an accepted doctrine in the church until Constantine settled the matter for political reasons, in 325.

    Tigger has not been disproved. His research is sound.
    You do not believe truth that is so clear.

    John 1:1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    The Deity of Jesus Christ
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    The Word Made Flesh
    14 And the Word became flesh, and [a]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [b]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    1 John 1:1-2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    Introduction, The Incarnate Word
    1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

    Hope someday that you come to know the truth.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    Bright Raven hasn't gotten the correct understanding of what was going on. Yes, the pagan-influenced doctrine of the Trinity reared its ugly head toward the end of the first century and continued to be argued about for the next 200 years and more, spurred on by the "wolves" that entered in among the true church even when the Apostles were walking the earth (Acts 20:29,30). It was a way of asserting control over people, and continued to be a very important POLITICAL subject to try and polarize the constituent citizens. The Trinity was not a solid doctrine until after 325 A.D., and even then it wasn't as we know it today for another 500 years. The truth is, Jesus' being equal to the Father was debated back and forth, and never taught as an accepted doctrine in the church until Constantine settled the matter for political reasons, in 325.

    Tigger has not been disproved. His research is sound.
    Tigger's research is not sound. He has conjecture, absent of evidence. Thus, it would be classified as "unsound."

    If Jesus was not being equated as being one with God, thus calling Himself God, then why did the Pharisee's crucify Him?

    We have evidence from within the first century that Trinity doctrine was being taught. So, claiming it was not solid doctrine until after 325 AD is purely false; especially to extrapolate that to saying it further evolved over 500 years. This is simply not historically accurate, and is a case of arguing a false claim in spite of evidence.

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