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Thread: Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

  1. #76
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    On the diagram showing the spider family tree, what's supposed to be off the left side of the page and what sits at the first two branches? Where's the creature that's sort of a horse shoe crap and sort of a sea spider but not really either one? Was there ever a creature that didn't have eight legs and slowly but surely turned into a creature that does have eight legs?

    Again, I really am not trying to focus on spiders here. It's just turned into a convenient avenue to go down toward the final destination.

    Also, notice that there is DNA for legs or there isn't, right? I mean, where did the DNA code for legs come from? How long is the DNA code for legs, hundred of base pairs, thousands? Is it longer or shorter than the DNA code for fins, or is it just different (i.e. not longer or shorter just different)? How much different is it? Is it a lot different or just a little incy-wincy bit different. (See what I did there! "incy-wincy spider" - get it? )

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  3. #77
    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Your heretical beliefs are not science. Your false belief system is what has lead to many shoddy conclusions in 'real science'.

    I don't think you know what real science is iouae? It seems as soon as we discuss something you don't understand, such as our chat on genetics, your only response is ad hominem. (In our discussion on genetics, you were tossing the same phrase 'fringe science's against secular geneticists,in secular journals, instead of truth g to address the argument)
    Hey 6days, at least learn the geologic column. Here is a mnemonic...

    The Pre-Cambrian Order Seems Devoid of Carbon Permanent Traces. Its Just a Creche Type Quagmire.

    Pre-Cambrian, Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carbon, Permian, Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Tertiary, Quaternary

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    These animals did not exist at the same time, they are separated by time. If they are transitional then it follows they are transitioning from the original created kind to something else God intended. If they are not transitioning that would mean that God didn't finish His creation in 6 days. He continued to create long after.
    Please provide your Biblical evidence for this claim.
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    That explains why your an idiot.
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    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
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    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post

    Fossil finds help fill in Romer's Gap
    Pederpes ("Peter's Foot") is an extinct genus of early Carboniferous tetrapod, dating from 348 to 347.6 Ma in the Tournaisian age (lower Mississippian). Pederpes contains one species, P. finneyae, 1 m long.
    Life reconstruction of Pederpes finneyae

    This most basal Carboniferous tetrapod had a large, somewhat triangular head, similar to that of later American sister-genus Whatcheeria, from which it is distinguished by various skeletal features, such as a spike-like latissimus dorsi (an arm muscle) attachment on the humerus and several minor skull features. The feet had characteristics that distinguished it from the paddle-like feet of the Devonian Ichthyostegalia and resembled the feet of later, more terrestrially adapted Carboniferous forms. Pederpes is the earliest-known tetrapod to show the beginnings of terrestrial locomotion and despite the probable presence of a sixth digit on the forelimbs it was at least functionally pentadactyl.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederpes

    All together, 37 different specimens (including isolated limb bones, skull bones, and even a handful of specimens with multiple bones from the same individual) were studied by Anderson and colleagues. The fossils could be referred to six or seven different groups of early tetrapods, showing that tetrapods were going strong even in the middle of Romer’s Gap. Some of these (closely related to Ichthyostega, shown below) are forms that are most closely associated with earlier times in earth’s history; one way or another, they made it through a big extinction just prior to Romer’s Gap. Maybe, then, the extinction didn’t hit tetrapods as hard as previously thought.

    Blue Beach isn’t the only locality to plug Romer’s Gap–another recently described set of fossils from Scotland shows a similarly rich tetrapod ecosystem. Together, these localities in disparate parts of the world suggests that the purported gap in the fossil record is more a collecting artifact than the result of genuine rarity of these animals during their time. Anderson and colleagues perhaps summarize it best:

    “It now seems that, whenever we discover rare windows into this time period, we find numerous fossil tetrapods reflecting a rich diversity of forms.” — Anderson et al. 2015

    In other words, Romer’s Gap probably isn’t a real phenomenon! With more fossils, it’s getting shorter and shorter. This is so often the case in paleontology–and that’s a good part of what keeps us all out looking for fossils. A “gap” in the fossil record is just a challenge to overcome.

    http://blogs.plos.org/paleo/2015/04/...-novia-scotia/
    Thanks for the comprehensive post Barbarian.

    I have no axe to grind one way or the other whether there are fossils in Romer's gap or not.

    I personally do not believe the taphonomy excuse, that fossils just did not preserve well in Romers gap, or the fossils are yet to be found.

    I have a few doubts about Pederpes, since the link you gave says "Pederpes was discovered in 1971 in central Scotland and classified as a lobe-finned fish." Maybe they were right the first time and it is a lobe-finned fish.

    All later land tetrapods have pentadactyly or 5 toes, this one 6.

    This is what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_tetrapods has to say.

    "Carboniferous tetrapods[edit]
    See also: Carboniferous tetrapod
    Until the 1990s, there was a 30 million year gap in the fossil record between the late Devonian tetrapods and the reappearance of tetrapod fossils in recognizable mid-Carboniferous amphibian lineages. It was referred to as "Romer's Gap", which now covers the period from about 360 to 345 million years ago (the Devonian-Carboniferous transition and the early Mississippian), after the palaeontologist who recognized it.

    During the "gap", tetrapod backbones developed, as did limbs with digits and other adaptations for terrestrial life. Ears, skulls and vertebral columns all underwent changes too. The number of digits on hands and feet became standardized at five, as lineages with more digits died out. Thus, those very few tetrapod fossils found in this "gap" are all the more prized by palaeontologists because they document these significant changes and clarify their history."

    My belief is that there were certain times in the geologic column, that God experimented, whenever there would be a big change and the new organisms might need a tweak. For instance I see the Ediacarans, possibly those in the Romer Gap, and certainly Pleistocene Hominids as God experimenting to get some new animal functioning correctly. Not a person on this forum agrees with me that God needs to experiment, or believes that God is a Scientist, and sometimes learns from failures too. What others think does not trouble me.

    In the end, I believe John 1:3 that every plant and animal was created by Jesus. I differ from YEC in that I add "not just 6000 years ago, but at different times in the geological past". To me, every fossil just adds to the glory of God. If this present biome was not great enough, 99% has died out and can only be admired as fossils.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Please provide your Biblical evidence for this claim.
    There isn't any which is the point. God's creation allows for adaptation and that is what we see in evolution. Animals adapting to changing conditions.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    There isn't any which is the point. God's creation allows for adaptation and that is what we see in evolution. Animals adapting to changing conditions.
    The variations (adaptations) within the kinds is not more creation... it is the natural order of the existing creation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
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    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Over 2500 post club iouae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    There isn't any which is the point. God's creation allows for adaptation and that is what we see in evolution. Animals adapting to changing conditions.
    God is a Creator God. Not a has-been-Creator. If He no longer created, He would no longer be a Creator God.

    God creates past, present, and future. And from the fossil record and how He boasted to Job of his creation, God obviously enjoys creating. The world could have comprised man and ten domestic plants and ten domestic animals, and God could have still saved man. The heavens could have had just sun and moon and no universe. God just goes wild and overdoes everything, to His glory and for His pleasure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    The variations (adaptations) within the kinds is not more creation... it is the natural order of the existing creation.
    Correct. It is also called evolution.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    God is a Creator God. Not a has-been-Creator. If He no longer created, He would no longer be a Creator God.

    God creates past, present, and future. And from the fossil record and how He boasted to Job of his creation, God obviously enjoys creating. The world could have comprised man and ten domestic plants and ten domestic animals, and God could have still saved man. The heavens could have had just sun and moon and no universe. God just goes wild and overdoes everything, to His glory and for His pleasure.
    So you are saying that God continued to create after the 6th day. @RightDivider will want you to provide biblical proof of that.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Correct. It is also called evolution.
    I was taking issue with your comment "He continued to create long after."

    Continued variation is not creation.

    The term "evolution" is so badly abused that I think that it always needs to be qualified with more details than just that single word.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    So you are saying that God continued to create after the 6th day. @RightDivider will want you to provide biblical proof of that.
    God creates in bursts. This is coming after Christ returns (the Milleniocene). Animals will be re-engineered.

    Isa 11:6
    The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

    Isa 65:25
    The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

    Even heaven and earth will be changed, and probably repopulated with new plants and animals, such as the tree of life bearing different fruit each month.

    Isa 65:17
    For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

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    Over 5000 post club 6days's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian
    'You're still angry because you got caught in a lie. You denied that Wise called intermediate forms "transitional forms"
    You are being dishonest. Wise does not believe in "intermediate forms", and calls the word 'transitional' an ambiguous word. He actually says that there are interpretations of fossils that can be understood to support macroevolution... But, "It is my understanding, for example, that the claim of an old earth denies the veracity of the first 11 chapters of Genesis", and that fossil evidence often better fits the Biblical account.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian

    It's "Dr. Wise" and he says as you also know that the existence of the transitional forms he referred to is "strong evidence" for evolution. Instead of trying to revise what he said, learn from it.
    Yes... He is an honest paleontologist who rejects the common ancestry belief system. He actually says that there are interpretations of fossils that can be understood to support macroevolution... But, "It is my understanding, for example, that the claim of an old earth denies the veracity of the first 11 chapters of Genesis", and that fossil evidence often better fits the Biblical account.


    Dr. Wise says "conventional theory is much less successful at explaining some of their fossil evidence (namely the horse series) series then is the creation model." (Contrary to your dishonest claim that Kurt Wise
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    I was taking issue with your comment "He continued to create long after."

    Continued variation is not creation.

    The term "evolution" is so badly abused that I think that it always needs to be qualified with more details than just that single word.
    You might want to go back and look at that original post. You have taken that quote out of context.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    These animals did not exist at the same time, they are separated by time. If they are transitional then it follows they are transitioning from the original created kind to something else God intended. If they are not transitioning that would mean that God didn't finish His creation in 6 days. He continued to create long after.
    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    You might want to go back and look at that original post. You have taken that quote out of context.
    Please explain how I took that out of context.

    The Bible says that God created everything in six days and yet your say that "He continued to create long after."


    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You preach against me for preaching obedience to Christ for salvation.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Please explain how I took that out of context.

    The Bible says that God created everything in six days and yet your say that "He continued to create long after."


    This is why you took it out of context, it needs to be read with the previous sentence to maintain proper context:
    If they are not transitioning that would mean that God didn't finish His creation in 6 days. He continued to create long after.

    Let me paraphrase it for you:
    If they are not transitioning that would mean that God didn't finish His creation in 6 days then He continued to create long after.

    Make more sense now? Context is rarely a function of on sentence or even one paragraph. Some of the very worst theology comes when people take a phrase or sentence or paragraph out of a book in the Bible. It can destroy the context of the original text.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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