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Thread: Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleos View Post
    Are you willing to learn about prophesies in the Bible that are verified by documented history, historical documents and or archeological findings?
    Yes.

    Give us one that is happening today, and let's see if it would convince an unbeliever that the Bible is true.

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    There are many scientists that use science to support creation and creation is actually becoming more and more scientifically supported as time goes on.

    Daniel 12

    4“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

    knowledge will increase ---- and it has ..... and it does .... and it will ;o)

    Science will eventually catch up with God in varying degrees to what degrees unknown ... the sad thing is ... by the time it does so more fully ... there will be many many that have forfeited eternal life, with a perfect God, in a perfect world and again for eternity. A lot at stake ... ALOT

    Revelation 21

    3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placea of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

    Eternal life .... or Eternal death...... Eternity .... think about it.

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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Actually this is not a true statement. Just because something is fully formed and alive before it was fossilized does not mean that it is not a transitional form. For instance:


    In this case, the Pliohippus is the transitional form from Merychippus to Equus.
    Wiki...
    Mesohippus (Greek: μεσο/meso meaning "middle" and ιππος/hippos meaning "horse") is an extinct genus of early horse. It lived some 30 to 40 million years ago from the Middle Eocene to the Early Oligocene. Browser.

    Wiki...
    Merychippus is an extinct proto-horse of the family Equidae that was endemic to North America during the Miocene, 15.9–10.3 million years ago.[2] It had three toes on each foot and is the first horse known to have grazed.

    The typical horse evolution line you gave has Mesohippus give rise to Merychippus.

    One was a browser, one a grazer. One lived "30-40 million years ago" and the other "15.9–10.3 million years ago".

    That's a 14 million year gap, and a complete change of diet, yet evolutionists say one gave rise to the other.
    Where is the proof for this? There is a 14 million year gap, and one grazes and one browses.

    There is zero proof one came from the other. But for evolutionists, they need a connection.

    And thousands of mammals have NO, ZERO, NADA, NIL animals which look like early versions of themselves or missing links.

    So the horse has some similar looking ancestors. Must I find deer with increasingly longer necks and say they are precursor giraffes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleos View Post
    Daniel 12

    4“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

    knowledge will increase ---- and it has ..... and it does .... and it will ;o)
    I am a believer.

    But don't you think its a safe prophecy to say that knowledge will increase?

    Is this biblical or secular knowledge increase?
    Will many go to and fro in their Bibles/Strongs etc. which will make Biblical knowledge increase?

    You need a prophecy like, when there is a tetrad of blood moons, something will happen to Israel?
    Wait, we had a tetrad, and nothing happened, other than the normal happenings. And could a prophecy be less specific than the tetrad one. I laughed at this foolish tetrad prophecy when I heard it years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Wiki...
    Mesohippus (Greek: μεσο/meso meaning "middle" and ιππος/hippos meaning "horse") is an extinct genus of early horse. It lived some 30 to 40 million years ago from the Middle Eocene to the Early Oligocene. Browser.

    Wiki...
    Merychippus is an extinct proto-horse of the family Equidae that was endemic to North America during the Miocene, 15.9–10.3 million years ago.[2] It had three toes on each foot and is the first horse known to have grazed.

    The typical horse evolution line you gave has Mesohippus give rise to Merychippus.

    One was a browser, one a grazer. One lived "30-40 million years ago" and the other "15.9–10.3 million years ago".

    That's a 14 million year gap, and a complete change of diet, yet evolutionists say one gave rise to the other.
    Where is the proof for this? There is a 14 million year gap, and one grazes and one browses.

    There is zero proof one came from the other. But for evolutionists, they need a connection.

    And thousands of mammals have NO, ZERO, NADA, NIL animals which look like early versions of themselves or missing links.

    So the horse has some similar looking ancestors. Must I find deer with increasingly longer necks and say they are precursor giraffes?
    Gradual changes postulated by the ToE account for changes in diet and size. 14 million years is a long time. Climates probably changed resulting in changes in vegetation and, eventually, eating styles. The problem with most creationists is that they expect to see a transitional form that has all these special traits from two distinct forms in the fossil record. Evolution doesn't work that way. There is a concept known as the genetic monster. When an animal gives birth to something completely different, it is a genetic monster. Some have postulated that this is how new species are created. Problem is, for that to happen, you would need to have two monsters, one male and one female, born close enough together in tiem and space to form a mating pair. Those are some long odds.

    Evolution says gradual change. Longer legs to cover more distance and for protection from predators. Change from browsing to grazing because grass is better suited to grazing than browsing.

    Here is a chart for giraffes:
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Then why not say so from the get go?
    There was no need to.

    Besides, I said explicitly that there was a reason I was asking that I'd get to in due time.

    Whether I know the answer or not, has nothing to do with whether you do nor with whether you have the ability to articulate it.

    Then you pick an animal and tell us where it got its legs.
    No. I have intention of picking any animal. You pick the animal. I don't care about what the animal is, I care about where the legs came from - even from just a purely conceptual perspective. In other words, I don't need details. Just some conceptual idea of how evolution accounts for the origin of legs.

    I suppose you will say on the 6th day, God....
    ...and the whole asking what evolutionists think is just irrelevant.
    On the contrary, what the evolutionists think is THE ENTIRE POINT!

    I have you on ignore because you're an idiot, so don't bother addressing me any further. It was pure luck that I even noticed this post.

    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Hunter View Post
    If you already "know" the answer is "goddidit" what is the point?
    No, you misunderstand. I know what the evolutionist's answer is. My surprise is only in the lack of an answer that you guys have come up with. I mean, "legs came from fins" is pretty weak. It's certainly a whole lot weaker than I would have expected. It seems that you are all completely ignorant of any evolutionary explanation for four pairs of six jointed legs on every single spider in existence. I starting to believe that evolution has devolved into mere claims that it happened with no effort at all being put into the question of how or why or when.

    If you agree with the evolutionary and scientific "explanation" what is there to "debate"?
    I don't agree with it.

    If this were a "debate", I win.
    You haven't even engaged it. If you would like to offer an answer, I'd enjoy reading it.

    I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
    It's my thread, bub. If you want to participate then I invite you to do so. If you don't then I can't make you but don't kid yourself, you've not won any debate here. It hasn't even gotten started yet.


    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I read your post too fast and looked right over this!

    This is PRECISELY the sort of thing I'm look for.

    What data?

    I don't need detailed specifics just in general, what do you mean by "genetic, anatomical and fossil data" and what does it tells us about where legs come from?
    Sorry, had to go out of town last week. Didn't do much here, and missed this.

    Genetic, because evo-devo has shown the same homeobox genes responsible for fins are also responsible for vertebrate legs.

    Here's just one, which is striking:


    So now we have anatomical and genetic information showing the evolution of limbs. As I think I mentioned, the first walking vertebrate didn't walk on land. Acanthostega was a fish, with a lateral line system, internal gills, rayed fin tail, and limb connections to the spine too weak to let it walk on land. It walked on the bottom of ponds.

    Because someone in this thread mentioned coelacanths as a putative human ancestor, it's important to note that they aren't. They are lobed-fin fish, and land vertebrates did evolve from lobed-fin fishes, but not coelacanths. And Coelacanths living today are much evolved from their ancient ancestors anyway.

    The lungfish are much closer to our line, and not surprisingly, lungfish are more closely related genetically to us than they are to a bass. BTW, lungs in fish seem to have evolved before swimbladders. Lungs aren't modified swimbladders, swimbladders are modified lungs. That's a bit of a diversion, but we can talk about it separately, if you'd like to know how we know.

    Other branches of lobed-fin fish developed more interesting structures.



    Having found the right strata, paleontologists are pulling all sorts of half-fish/half-tetrapods out of the rocks, and it seems that there was a lot of selective pressure toward walking.

    Limbs in fish have evolved at least twice since. Mudskippers have modified fins to "walk" and even climb trees.



    The sargassum fish lives in "forests" of sargassum seaweed, and have evolved "hands" from their fins to climb around in the weed.



    Edit: Apparently it's happened at least three times. Frogfish use fins to walk along the bottom.



    It looks weird, because it's the same bones, using the same motion as we see in tetrapods.
    Last edited by The Barbarian; December 12th, 2017 at 06:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Actually this is not a true statement. Just because something is fully formed and alive before it was fossilized does not mean that it is not a transitional form. For instance:


    In this case, the Pliohippus is the transitional form from Merychippus to Equus.
    Arranging fossils in a pattern to fit your beliefs is not science. As paleontologist Kurt Wise says, the evidence of fossil horses better fits the Biblical creation account. (We can also see how genetics does NOT support the 'just so' evolutionary story.)
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian
    Mudskippers have modified fins to "walk" and even climb trees.
    Actually, it would seem mudskippers were one of the created kinds on day 5 of the creation week.


    Zoologist Philip Bell says mudskippers are excellent examples of design that supports the truth of scripture, and opposes evolutionary beliefs. "Mudskippers really are marvels of the mangrove swamps and mudflats. Whether we focus on their special eyes, take in their unique breathing or ponder their amusing fin-walking, these fish seem to have an ideal blend of characteristics for creatures that are at home in water and on land. Their various ‘departures’ from normal fish anatomy show an economy of design, with the complex parts of each body system all clearly specified (by instructions in the DNA) and finely tuned. Mudskippers are certainly no reason for creationists to have bad dreams! Those who choose to believe otherwise would appear to be willingly ignorant (2 Peter 3:5)."
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Having found the right strata, paleontologists are pulling all sorts of half-fish/half-tetrapods out of the rocks, and it seems that there was a lot of selective pressure toward walking.
    Give us the names of these land-walking tetrapods, or a reference please.

    This is happening during Romer's gap - and its called a gap for a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Having found the right strata, paleontologists are pulling all sorts of half-fish/half-tetrapods out of the rocks, and it seems that there was a lot of selective pressure toward walking.

    Limbs in fish have evolved at least twice since. Mudskippers have modified fins to "walk" and even climb trees.

    Mudskippers played no role in tetrapod evolution. See the following...

    Mudskippers live in mangrove forests along the tropical coasts of the Indian and Pacific oceans. They inhabit mudflats and tolerate a wide range of salinities. Mudskippers belong to the Goby family – a comparatively recent group of fishes, which first appeared in the fossil record some 58-37 million years ago.

    https://www.aquarium.co.za/species/entry/mudskippers

    Tetrapod creation (not evolution) occurred 345 million years ago. After Romer's gap, land dwelling tetrapods appear in all their glory and diversity with nary a missing link, in the early Carboniferous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Arranging fossils in a pattern to fit your beliefs is not science. As paleontologist Kurt Wise says, the evidence of fossil horses better fits the Biblical creation account. (We can also see how genetics does NOT support the 'just so' evolutionary story.)
    These animals did not exist at the same time, they are separated by time. If they are transitional then it follows they are transitioning from the original created kind to something else God intended. If they are not transitioning that would mean that God didn't finish His creation in 6 days. He continued to create long after.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae
    I would like to ask you creationists this question.

    Are YOU willing to learn a little about the geologic column, if for no other reason than to better defeat the evolutionists arguments?
    If you are asking if people want to understand your heretical beliefs about a God who tinkered, and had some failures, over the course of various creations.... Let's hope people say no.


    If people want to understand the geological layers from the Biblical account, there are many good resources from Biblical creationist scientists including geologists. The rocks support God's Word.


    http://www.icr.org/article/lateral-l...ologic-strata/


    http://www.icr.org/article/permian-e...ad-assumptions


    http://creation.mobi/the-rapid-forma...-more-evidence


    https://answersingenesis.org/geology/


    https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com...eology-part-1/
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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