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Thread: Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae
    When you say things equivalent to the earth is supported by four elephants atop one turtle, to us who know better, you just sound ignorant.
    If God's Word told me that there was turtles all the way down... that is what I would believe. Actually though, God's Word tell us that He suspends the earth over nothing.


    And contrary to your above statement, what I said was that I believe Genesis 1 and that there is nothing in Scripture to support your heretical belief that Genesis 1 is a re-creation using pre-existing materials in by a God who tinkered with failed previous creations.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I believe the Bible, and the heavens and the rocks. Ps 19:1
    The rocks are fooling you.
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    Okay, well, I have to say that I'm really rather disappointed in the stuff you evolutionists have presented thus far on the question of where legs came from. It's just legs, for crying out loud, simple appendages! I wasn't trying to stump you with this question. I didn't go and find the most wildly complex thing I could think of, like a brain for example, and ask you to explain that. All I was looking for was a cogent, conceptual explanation of where legs came from. It could have been dog legs, chicken legs or whatever sort of legs. I expected that evolution expects for all legs to have had a similar evolutionary path even if there was more than one source but no one even bothered to give even the most rudimentary explanation for where spider legs evolved from at all, never mind insects and other bugs like centipedes and wood lice.

    I mean seriously! I really honestly expected something way more scientifically robust than the feeble crap that has been presented so far. Is this as good as modern science can do? Is the stuff presented here what has you guys all so convinced that (to quote Carl Sagan), "Evolution is a fact , not a theory. It really happened."?

    Come you guys! You can do better than this - can't you?!

    I offer you another chance. Give it all you've got. Pretend like I'm some young mind full of mush in a public school science class and your job is to see to it that I don't leave your classroom without having been convinced that it is reasonable to believe that legs at least COULD have evolved from something somehow.

    Ready? Go!
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    And I don't intend to try to pick apart whatever explanation is offered. It isn't about that. I'm simply curious to know what evolution has to say about legs and why they exist and how they got here. Feel free to just offer whatever it is you understand to be what evolutionary theory has to say on the topic.


    Thanks,
    Clete
    Clete, in your first post you give the impression of an unbiased truth seeker.

    I am not an evolutionist, but I explained to you how tetrapod legs originated, suddenly and completely in the Carboniferous, after Romer's gap which is rock without tetrapods. Tetrapods are animals that walk on all fours. We are talking about vertebrates here.

    Even humans, chickens and dogs are vertebrates and tetrapods but they were created, complete with legs, long after the Carboniferous.

    Invertebrate legs originated in the Cambrian, the first geologic age. Trilobites appear suddenly in the fossil record complete with legs. Trilobites have legs similar to all other Arthropods. Arthropods include crabs, insects, spiders.

    Pick an animal, and if your reply to this post indicates that you are willing to learn, I will be happy to tell you where that animal got its legs. Every animal appears suddenly, in the geologic column, complete with legs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Okay, well, I have to say that I'm really rather disappointed in the stuff you evolutionists have presented thus far on the question of where legs came from. It's just legs, for crying out loud, simple appendages! I wasn't trying to stump you with this question. I didn't go and find the most wildly complex thing I could think of, like a brain for example, and ask you to explain that. All I was looking for was a cogent, conceptual explanation of where legs came from. It could have been dog legs, chicken legs or whatever sort of legs. I expected that evolution expects for all legs to have had a similar evolutionary path even if there was more than one source but no one even bothered to give even the most rudimentary explanation for where spider legs evolved from at all, never mind insects and other bugs like centipedes and wood lice.

    I mean seriously! I really honestly expected something way more scientifically robust than the feeble crap that has been presented so far. Is this as good as modern science can do? Is the stuff presented here what has you guys all so convinced that (to quote Carl Sagan), "Evolution is a fact , not a theory. It really happened."?

    Come you guys! You can do better than this - can't you?!
    Is Googling "evolutionary origin of legs" too difficult?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Pretend like I'm some young mind full of mush ...
    There isn't much pretending necessary...
    "The more scientifically literate, intellectually honest and objectively skeptical a person is, the more likely they are to disbelieve in anything supernatural, including god."

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    When you say things equivalent to the earth is supported by four elephants atop one turtle, to us who know better, you just sound ignorant.
    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    If God's Word told me that there was turtles all the way down... that is what I would believe.
    This says quite a bit about your objectivity... you have none.
    "The more scientifically literate, intellectually honest and objectively skeptical a person is, the more likely they are to disbelieve in anything supernatural, including god."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Hunter View Post
    Is Googling "evolutionary origin of legs" too difficult?
    I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking, moron.

    This is a debate forum. It's a place where people come to debate stuff. Get it?

    There isn't much pretending necessary...
    Then do it! Show me how its at all reasonable to think that legs could have evolved. If you're so much smarter than I am, it ought to be easy for you. So do it!
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking, moron.
    Then why not say so from the get go?

    Then you pick an animal and tell us where it got its legs.

    I suppose you will say on the 6th day, God....
    ...and the whole asking what evolutionists think is just irrelevant.

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    Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about many things.

    Let it be understood, I am not discounting all science, but the following is on the topic of creation (by God) or evolution verses some other theory(s).

    How did human life come into existance?

    Fact: We know we are here. We exist.

    Question: How did we get here?

    Creation verses evolution or other theories.

    Evolution and/or other theories: Are not fully testable.

    Creation - Also not fully testable in relation to science.

    Creation and the Bible: One can dismiss the Bibles explantion of creation. However, the bible is a prophetic book and many of these prophesies (historical events) are verified through documented history, historical documents and or acchological finds. The odds of anyone being able to predict the future with a very high level of accuracy (that is the more detailed the prediction) the odds of those predictions coming true become a extremely high bar to discount as to chance or any other explantion. With science one must also consider odds. However with science there is not not necessaryily confirmed by documented history that support the theory rather it is theory based on theory.

    one example - the fossil record … there is nothing in the “fossil record” that shows the transition of one form into another …. on the contrary it shows the full forms. In the earth’s “layers” from the depths we are able to look at through core samples, in those layers lacks a record of transition and then there appears fully formed life of various kinds.

    Science attempts to tie everything material to it’s theories. God ties everything to the spiritual.

    Considering the odds:

    The Spiritual - The Bible a prophetic and set of historical books. That is it predicts the future before it happens. In order for this to be believed there has to be historical accounts verifying that events were predicted with historical evidence (secular records) to prophesy(s) made. There is a lot of historical evidence (secular records) that verify biblical accounts …. through people that lived, events in history that are documented, archeogical findings etc. many that coincide with prophicies made in the Bible. So then we come to the question of odds. Predictions - the more detailed the prediction the higher the odds become that they are true and reliable. Many predictions made in the Bible are verifiable (secular history) and many are very detailed making the odds of the predictions extremely high … so high they can not be ignored, yet they are. Mostly due to people not looking at prophesies in the Bible and then comparing them with documented history. Their “beliefs” are formed without using biblical accounts into the consideration of what they believe. If the Bible is not considered … then one is not considering all evidence and therefore their arguments are futile.

    So in the Bible is this verse of why we believe Gods word and therefore can be confident in it. (Again - Much much much verifiable by history)

    2nd Peter


    19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Spiritual … yet verifiable by history. So detailed even if looking at prophesy with a rational mind can not be ignored.

    Weigh the evidence … all the evidence, including the Bible. I encourage all to do so.

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    I would like to ask you creationists this question.

    Are YOU willing to learn a little about the geologic column, if for no other reason than to better defeat the evolutionists arguments?

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    Alright @Clete, here is my guess.

    Evolution works on an expressed phenotype, and expressed allele. The phenotype can either be beneficial or not. If it is beneficial, then it is passed to the next generation. If it is not then it may or may not be passed on depending on how non-beneficial it is.

    Let us take a fish, a pre-mud skipper if you will. It is swimming in shallow pools and when they dry up and run out of food, the fish has a rather big problem. At some point, for some unknown reason, a mutation occurs in the genes that control the fin development such that the bones of the fin become stronger. The fish happens to discover that its fins are strong enough that it can pull itself across the ground mud to a different pool when his runs out of food. The phenotype of this fish conveys an enhanced ability to survive so it is based on to future generations.

    Looking at other animals, crabs, insects, arthropods, we might have to go back farther in time to single cell animals. Single cell animals developed flagella to move because it gave them an advantage. It is possible that the different phylum's each developed from a different single cell animal. Some developed 6 legs that walk sideways (crabs) while others developed 6 legs that move forward (insects).

    The idea is that small beneficial changes add up over time. It is a concept that is actually used quite frequently in engineering. But here is where my gap in understanding comes in. Evolution can only act on an expressed phenotype. A phenotype is an expressed allele in a gene. Gene mutations are random so we are counting on a random mutation to create an allele that does something good. It gets further complicated by the fact that the stronger bones in my mud skipper example above is grossly incomplete. We would require a series of mutations that makes the bones stronger and the muscles stronger as well. Plus we have to have mutations to the gills to allow the fish to survive as it moves between pools. So it is not just one gene that needs to mutate. It is not even the just the genes dealing with fins that must mutate, we have multiple gene mutations required. And at some point we have to figure out how all new chromosomes come into existence. I have a rather large gap in understanding the details of genetics. I call that gap the ignorance gap because I have not taken the time to study in years and years.

    That said, when we look at the fossil record it is fairly easy to see that all vertebrate animals can trace back to some single point of origin. When we compare the bone structures of whales and elephants and bats and people we can see all of the same bones though they are significantly in shape in size. This speaks to a common ancestor. I digress.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

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    What are my fruits today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleos View Post
    Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about many things.
    Hi Eleos, nice to have you on this forum.

    All human activities, including science have elements of faith. Evolutionists are believers in the unseen. Quantum physicist's are believers in the unseen.

    Creation and the Bible: One can dismiss the Bibles explantion of creation. However, the bible is a prophetic book and many of these prophesies (historical events) are verified through documented history, historical documents and or acchological finds. The odds of anyone being able to predict the future with a very high level of accuracy (that is the more detailed the prediction) the odds of those predictions coming true become a extremely high bar to discount as to chance or any other explantion. With science one must also consider odds. However with science there is not not necessaryily confirmed by documented history that support the theory rather it is theory based on theory.
    Dozens of prophesies about Christ were fulfilled. Every person saying they were living in the end time, has been a liar, to date.

    one example - the fossil record … there is nothing in the “fossil record” that shows the transition of one form into another …. on the contrary it shows the full forms. In the earth’s “layers” from the depths we are able to look at through core samples, in those layers lacks a record of transition and then there appears fully formed life of various kinds.
    Very good point. Every fossil was fully functional and able to live.

    Science attempts to tie everything material to it’s theories. God ties everything to the spiritual.

    Considering the odds:

    The Spiritual - The Bible a prophetic and set of historical books. That is it predicts the future before it happens. In order for this to be believed there has to be historical accounts verifying that events were predicted with historical evidence (secular records) to prophesy(s) made. There is a lot of historical evidence (secular records) that verify biblical accounts …. through people that lived, events in history that are documented, archeogical findings etc. many that coincide with prophicies made in the Bible. So then we come to the question of odds. Predictions - the more detailed the prediction the higher the odds become that they are true and reliable. Many predictions made in the Bible are verifiable (secular history) and many are very detailed making the odds of the predictions extremely high … so high they can not be ignored, yet they are. Mostly due to people not looking at prophesies in the Bible and then comparing them with documented history. Their “beliefs” are formed without using biblical accounts into the consideration of what they believe. If the Bible is not considered … then one is not considering all evidence and therefore their arguments are futile.

    So in the Bible is this verse of why we believe Gods word and therefore can be confident in it. (Again - Much much much verifiable by history)

    2nd Peter


    19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Spiritual … yet verifiable by history. So detailed even if looking at prophesy with a rational mind can not be ignored.

    Weigh the evidence … all the evidence, including the Bible. I encourage all to do so.
    If one were to do a proper statistical analysis of what prophets and preachers say will happen, compared with what actually happens, I personally think there will be no correlation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Hunter View Post
    Is Googling "evolutionary origin of legs" too difficult?
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking...
    If you already "know" the answer is "goddidit" what is the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This is a debate forum. It's a place where people come to debate stuff. Get it?
    If you agree with the evolutionary and scientific "explanation" what is there to "debate"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    ... moron.
    If this were a "debate", I win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Hunter View Post
    There isn't much pretending necessary...
    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Then do it! Show me how its at all reasonable to think that legs could have evolved. If you're so much smarter than I am, it ought to be easy for you. So do it!
    I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
    "The more scientifically literate, intellectually honest and objectively skeptical a person is, the more likely they are to disbelieve in anything supernatural, including god."

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    Are you willing to learn about prophesies in the Bible that are verified by documented history, historical documents and or archeological findings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleos View Post
    one example - the fossil record … there is nothing in the “fossil record” that shows the transition of one form into another …. on the contrary it shows the full forms. In the earth’s “layers” from the depths we are able to look at through core samples, in those layers lacks a record of transition and then there appears fully formed life of various kinds.
    Actually this is not a true statement. Just because something is fully formed and alive before it was fossilized does not mean that it is not a transitional form. For instance:


    In this case, the Pliohippus is the transitional form from Merychippus to Equus.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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