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Thread: Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I agree with most of what you say, with this exception...

    There have been many dozens of mass extinctions - it just depends on how you define one.

    And I see God recreating, using old DNA, after each extinction event.

    During the Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous era, God was on a Dinosaur/reptile "size-does-matter" phase.

    Immediately after this, God goes back to what He started before the Triassic, He essentially goes back to animals shaped after the therapsid, mammal-like-reptiles of the Permian. After reptiles being so dominant, now mammals rule.

    I see the whole Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous as God taking a side-trip.
    Then He got back to the main business of making man in His image.
    So all the animals become smaller, more mammal like, tame by comparison - and now we live in the Holocene - the time with the best climate and the most docile creatures - all perfect for puny man.
    Well we disagree here somewhat, but that's fine!

    It was a fun conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    You believe in an weak god who can't get things right. The Bible tells us about a Creator who is perfect and created all the land animals in one day. Nothing about tweaking in God's Word.

    This below is all about tweaking, and this is only Genesis 3. The rest of the Bible is full of it too.

    Gen 3:14

    And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
    Gen 3:15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    Gen 3:16

    Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    Gen 3:17

    And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    Gen 3:18
    Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    Well we disagree here somewhat, but that's fine!

    It was a fun conversation.
    It was. Thanks
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    They serve a purpose you say.....and that purpose is?
    You could go to wiki for some info on goosebumps and ther purpose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_bumps
    But, even if humans have lost functionality of something, its simply a false belief to say that lost function is due to common ancestry.
    We know from God's Word that humans were created perfect, and corruption has caused problems (shortened lives, sickness, death etc)

    Dr. Elizabeth Mitchell says " Those muscles that tug on our hair follicles help the protective oil produced by follicles’ sebaceous glands to ooze out onto the skin. Their muscle action can also generate a bit of additional heat on a cold day, though we can be thankful that we do not have fur to impede our evaporating sweat from cooling us on a hot day. And inside every hair follicle is a supply of cells that can transform into the raw material for healing when needed. Without this supply of epithelial cells, even minor wounds would have to slowly heal from the edges inward. Our hair follicles are also attached to sensitive nerve endings, and when strong emotions prompt our fine hairs to stand up, they are more easily touched, increasing somewhat our sensitivity to the brush of danger. There is certainly nothing useless about the equipment that produces goose bumps, and goose bumps are not the proof of an evolutionary past."
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    You could go to wiki for some info on goosebumps and ther purpose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_bumps
    But, even if humans have lost functionality of something, its simply a false belief to say that lost function is due to common ancestry.
    We know from God's Word that humans were created perfect, and corruption has caused problems (shortened lives, sickness, death etc)

    Dr. Elizabeth Mitchell says " Those muscles that tug on our hair follicles help the protective oil produced by follicles’ sebaceous glands to ooze out onto the skin. Their muscle action can also generate a bit of additional heat on a cold day, though we can be thankful that we do not have fur to impede our evaporating sweat from cooling us on a hot day. And inside every hair follicle is a supply of cells that can transform into the raw material for healing when needed. Without this supply of epithelial cells, even minor wounds would have to slowly heal from the edges inward. Our hair follicles are also attached to sensitive nerve endings, and when strong emotions prompt our fine hairs to stand up, they are more easily touched, increasing somewhat our sensitivity to the brush of danger. There is certainly nothing useless about the equipment that produces goose bumps, and goose bumps are not the proof of an evolutionary past."
    Are you kidding me? Your "doctor" works exclusively for Answers in Genesis! What an unbiased opinion! Also she's a retired obstetrician.....How is a baby-deliverer an expert on evolution? Because AiG is a joke that's how

    It's just like when you quote a mathematician regarding chemistry. They're NOT the same

    https://answersingenesis.org/bios/elizabeth-mitchell/
    https://answersingenesis.org/kids/sc...beth-mitchell/

    Find me one function for goosebumps that isn't from a Christian apologetics site. You're unbelievable

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    This below is all about tweaking, and this is only Genesis 3. The rest of the Bible is full of it too.
    You have a heretical belief system. The Creator God of the Bible is perfect... His ways are perfect. He called his completed creation "very good" He did not need tweak His creation.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    Are you kidding me? Your "doctor" works exclusively for Answers in Genesis! What an unbiased opinion! Also she's a retired obstetrician.....How is a baby-deliverer an expert on evolution?

    https://answersingenesis.org/bios/elizabeth-mitchell/

    Find me one function for goosebumps that isn't from a Christian apologetics site. You're unbelievable
    Uh... Greg... Sorry but ad hominem is not a logical argument. You can attack her argument if you wish, but attacking the person instead of her answer, suggests you don't have a logical response.
    BTW.... Wikipedia that I linked for you is not associated with AIG.

    And... as I said, IF goosebumps actually have a reduced function from when God created, it is understandable considering several thousand years of mutation accumulation. Your "BEST" evidence, is simply a false belief... not science.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Just one last elaboration...

    There is no logical reason to go from a reptile dominated world (Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous), to a completely different mammal dominated world. And I understand evolutionists will say that evolution is not directed by logic.

    However in God's plan, there is a logical reason to go from a dinosaur dominated world to a mammal dominated world.

    First off, we religious folks presume that Homo sapiens was the point of God bothering with a material creation in the first place.

    That being the case, man is puny and does not survive well. So everything has to be "dumbed down" and made more puny so that man does not get eaten on the eighth day.

    Hence the Holocene mammals, far smaller than even the animals of the Pleistocene with its megafauna.

    And this is a cold time in earth's history. We are actually living between ice ages, in a fairly mild, but cold part of earth's history. The climate is very consistent, and sea levels almost unchanging. This 6000 year Goldilocks piece of the geologic column is perfect for the salvation of man.

    Temperature of earth was 10 degrees C higher than today. That's 50 degrees Fahrenheit higher in the past, perfect for reptiles which like heat. I personally dislike heat - it's, well, too hot. That said, when handed a lemon, make lemonade. I am off to the beach to see if the surf's up.
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    You have a heretical belief system.
    6days, you have just written to Greg "Uh... Greg... Sorry but ad hominem is not a logical argument" and then you use ad hominem on me. You are the ad hominem king.
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Uh... Greg... Sorry but ad hominem is not a logical argument. You can attack her argument if you wish, but attacking the person instead of her answer, suggests you don't have a logical response.
    BTW.... Wikipedia that I linked for you is not associated with AIG.

    And... as I said, IF goosebumps actually have a reduced function from when God created, it is understandable considering several thousand years of mutation accumulation. Your "BEST" evidence, is simply a false belief... not science.
    6....an obstetrician with a chemistry undergrad is less qualified to talk about this than I am, frankly. My geology degree with a biology minor (from a Baptist university, no less) makes me more an expert in evolution than she is.
    She doesn't have an argument 6. She's simply wrong, and probably because she doesn't know what she's talking about because she's A) not qualified and B) works for AiG, who says in their about page that they don't even take anything other than evidence that agrees with the Bible into account. Seems like a narrow view, huh?

    Here's a quote from Wikipedia, the REAL source you provided:
    "As a response to cold: in animals covered with fur or hair, the erect hairs trap air to create a layer of insulation."

    Are humans COVERED in fur or hair? Last time I checked, no

    Now, I'll provide a source for YOU, with an actual qualified person:
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...s-get-goosebu/
    "George A.Bubenik, a physiologist and professor of zoology at the University of Guelph in Ontario, explains:"
    Did you see that? He's a professor of zoology! And he's affiliated with a real scientific organization! I think that trumps baby-deliverer in regards to knowledge of evolution.
    "Goosebumps are a physiological phenomenon inherited from our animal ancestors, which was useful to them but are not of much help to us. Goosebumps are tiny elevations of the skin that resemble the skin of poultry after the feathers have been plucked. (Therefore we could as well call them "turkeybumps" or "duckbumps.") These bumps are caused by a contraction of miniature muscles that are attached to each hair. Each contracting muscle creates a shallow depression on the skin surface, which causes the surrounding area to protrude. The contraction also causes the hair to stand up whenever the body feels cold. In animals with a thick hair coat this rising of hair expands the layer of air that serves as insulation. The thicker the hair layer, the more heat is retained. In people this reaction is useless because we do not have a hair coat, but goosebumps persist nevertheless.

    So I guess it's my zoologist's word against your obstetrician's. There isn't a degree of change when goosebumps are on a person. You could warm yourself up literally 6 times as much by doing 30 jumping jacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    So I guess it's my zoologist's word against your obstetrician's.
    Greg, when you learned zoology, did they teach you palaeontology, or there the morphological changes occurred in the geologic column?

    Evolutionary zoology teaches that diploblastic became triploblastic, asymmetrical body plan became radial became bilateral etc. But did they tell you when in the geologic column this was supposed to have occurred?

    I was taught these changed over time, but I find most "changes" happened spontaneously in the Cambrian explosion.
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    6days, you have just written to Greg "Uh... Greg... Sorry but ad hominem is not a logical argument" and then you use ad hominem on me. You are the ad hominem king.
    Ad hominem is if you attack the person instead of their argument as Greg did.
    Your claim of a God who can't get things right and keeps tweaking is heretical.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Ad hominem is if you attack the person instead of their argument as Greg did.
    Your claim of a God who can't get things right and keeps tweaking is heretical.
    There was a heretic 6days
    Who was blind to his ways,
    He saw everyone as wrong
    But it was him all along
    So no one cares what he says.
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    So I guess it's my zoologist's word against your obstetrician's. There isn't a degree of change when goosebumps are on a person. You could warm yourself up literally 6 times as much by doing 30 jumping jacks.
    Your zoologist studies and attempts to classify animals. Your zoologist attempts to do this within the framework of the common ancestry belief system. (We could also find zoologists who reject that belief system)
    Dr. Mitchell explains evidence within the framework of God's Word.

    You still are attacking her rather than her claims about goose pimples... ad hominem.

    Again, what she says about function of Goose pimples is "Those muscles that tug on our hair follicles help the protective oil produced by follicles’ sebaceous glands to ooze out onto the skin. Their muscle action can also generate a bit of additional heat on a cold day, though we can be thankful that we do not have fur to impede our evaporating sweat from cooling us on a hot day. And inside every hair follicle is a supply of cells that can transform into the raw material for healing when needed. Without this supply of epithelial cells, even minor wounds would have to slowly heal from the edges inward. Our hair follicles are also attached to sensitive nerve endings, and when strong emotions prompt our fine hairs to stand up, they are more easily touched, increasing somewhat our sensitivity to the brush of danger. There is certainly nothing useless about the equipment that produces goose bumps, and goose bumps are not the proof of an evolutionary past."
    (Even Wiki says " During the formation of goose bumps, the body is warmed from the muscle tension in piloerection")
    Last edited by 6days; January 14th, 2018 at 07:49 AM.
    Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Your zoologist studies and attempts to classify animals. Your zoologist attempts to do this within the framework of the common ancestry belief system. (We could also find zoologists who reject that belief system)
    Dr. Mitchell explains evidence within the framework of God's Word.

    You still are attacking her rather than her claims about goose pimples... ad hominem.

    Again, what she says about function of Goose pimples is "Those muscles that tug on our hair follicles help the protective oil produced by follicles’ sebaceous glands to ooze out onto the skin. Their muscle action can also generate a bit of additional heat on a cold day, though we can be thankful that we do not have fur to impede our evaporating sweat from cooling us on a hot day. And inside every hair follicle is a supply of cells that can transform into the raw material for healing when needed. Without this supply of epithelial cells, even minor wounds would have to slowly heal from the edges inward. Our hair follicles are also attached to sensitive nerve endings, and when strong emotions prompt our fine hairs to stand up, they are more easily touched, increasing somewhat our sensitivity to the brush of danger. There is certainly nothing useless about the equipment that produces goose bumps, and goose bumps are not the proof of an evolutionary past."
    (Even Wiki says " During the formation of goose bumps, the body is warmed from the muscle tension in piloerection")
    I looked up the user who added that line to the Wiki page, and guess what? Here is the edit, which originally replaced an evolutionary answer with the word 'vestigal' in it:

    During the formation of goose bumps, the body is warmed from the muscle tension in piloerection. In addition, goose bumps trigger the emission of an oil that actually traps air around the skin surface to provide insulation.<ref>http://aiia.christiananswers.net/resources/thoughtletters/26/</ref>

    The bit about the oil has been deleted since, sensibly since it was complete nonsense, but it was all from a creationist site!

    Who'd 'ave guessed? 6Days is quoting a dodgy passage from a Wiki page that had been edited by a creationist using info from a site with a 'statement of faith'.
    We wunt be druv.

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