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Thread: Is the Holy Spirit Female?

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    Lightbulb More light shared, true to nature...............

    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    You have been reduced to debating yourself.

    The Holy Spirit is not an inanimate object as you think. If you had Her inside you would know that.


    Job 33:4
    עָ שָׂ תְ נִ י
    oshth·ni
    SHE made me

    תְּ חַ יֵּנִ י
    thchi·ni
    SHE is keeping alive me

    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/job33.pdf

    For those interested I would refer to my previous commentary here which expounds on an underlying foundational understanding of 'Deity and Gender'. Here is also earlier commentary on the divine feminine, linking some posts that I was banned for, just for recognizing the female element that originates in God, and must be EQUAL to the masculine element, since BOTH are intrinsic to LIFE and CREATION. These are universal truths that I am not ashamed of, and will joyously expound, along with other truths of nature.

    WOTW's misdirection and insistence comes from holding to a dogmatic point of view on the HS being female 'person', when this is not a necessary dogma, in as much as we recognize and honor 'God' as both Father and Mother to all Creation. Even on this point, my view is much less 'blasphemous' than his, since I have nowhere claimed a dogmatic insistence that the HS be proclaimed as female, or be given a due pronoun 'she' or 'her', although I might infer that or write that way, to indicate a gendered nuance within any given context.

    Our love for 'God' includes every aspect of God's nature and character, and to neglect, deny or suppress any gender, when they are complete, equal and synergized in God, is erroneous and misdirected. Since the wholeness of God ever includes every aspect of his Nature, we would not render God the honor and worship he is owed if we did not honor and worship his WHOLE nature, for he is HOLY, and that most certainly includes worshipping Him in the beauty of holiness. This cannot be done without also honoring God as divine Mother as well.

    My sharings in this thread and the above linked posts (see all links) comprise the sum of my thoughts so far on the subject. Again, Creator and Creation includes and comprises the full synergy, intercourse and inter-play of 'masculine' and 'feminine' energies, apart from which CREATION would not be. To deny this would be to deny God's holiness, his very nature, character, being....which is revealed in creation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    For those interested I would refer to my previous commentary here which expounds on an underlying foundational understanding of 'Deity and Gender'. Here is also earlier commentary on the divine feminine, linking some posts that I was banned for, just for recognizing the female element that originates in God, and must be EQUAL to the masculine element, since BOTH are intrinsic to LIFE and CREATION. These are universal truths that I am not ashamed of, and will joyously expound, along with other truths of nature.

    WOTW's misdirection and insistence comes from holding to a dogmatic point of view on the HS being female 'person', when this is not a necessary dogma, in as much as we recognize and honor 'God' as both Father and Mother to all Creation. Even on this point, my view is much less 'blasphemous' than his, since I have nowhere claimed a dogmatic insistence that the HS be proclaimed as female, or be given a due pronoun 'she' or 'her', although I might infer that or write that way, to indicate a gendered nuance within any given context.

    Our love for 'God' includes every aspect of God's nature and character, and to neglect, deny or suppress any gender, when they are complete, equal and synergized in God, is erroneous and misdirected. Since the wholeness of God ever includes every aspect of his Nature, we would not render God the honor and worship he is owed if we did not honor and worship his WHOLE nature, for he is HOLY, and that most certainly includes worshipping Him in the beauty of holiness. This cannot be done without also honoring God as divine Mother as well.

    My sharings in this thread and the above linked posts (see all links) comprise the sum of my thoughts so far on the subject. Again, Creator and Creation includes and comprises the full synergy, intercourse and inter-play of 'masculine' and 'feminine' energies, apart from which CREATION would not be. To deny this would be to deny God's holiness, his very nature, character, being....which is revealed in creation.
    Do you believe in the trinity?

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    deleat

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    Chair replied to Tambora:

    I have given up on trying to get Watchman to accept the plain facts of Hebrew grammar. He needs the facts to be different than they are in order to have some support for his ideas- therefore the facts are different, and reality doesn't count. That's logic for you.
    You are both absolutely correct about the Hebrew grammar, of course!

    If Holy Spirit had been a mature person instead of a thing, it would have been in either the masculine or the feminine in both Hebrew and NT Greek!

    For example, 'woman,' ' 'mother,' 'goddess,' 'maiden,' 'maidservant,' 'princess,' etc. are in the feminine gender in BOTH the NT and the OT.

    And 'God,' 'man,' 'priest,' 'prophet,' 'father,' 'prince,' etc. are in the masculine gender in BOTH the OT and the NT.

    But holy spirit is in the feminine gender in the OT (which has no neuter gender and most often uses the feminine gender instead). Furthermore the NT Greek does use a neuter gender. And since 'holy spirit' in the NT is in the neuter gender, it means that it cannot be a mature person, but is something: A force or energy which God uses in numerous ways.

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    Lightbulb Clarifications.....

    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Do you believe in the trinity?
    I do not limit, confine or subscribe 'God' to the definitions of Orthodox Christian creed or dogmas, or any particular religious definition necessarily.....since the Infinite cannot be so sub-scribed.

    What I set forth in my commentary on the 'Father-Mother-God', or the feminine aspect of Deity is according to universal energy, principle, concept and nature, as both 'male' and 'female' interact within Creation.

    A Trinity of Father-Mother-Son within this context is rational to include in its comprehension, without one having to hold to a traditional-orthodox concept of 'The Trinity' as christian creeds define it, neither a dogmatic insistence for defining each aspect of the Godhead as 'persons' necessarily. I've detailed the various aspects, nuances and dimensions of 'personality' as God expresses his character/nature personally in relationships, and in other ways seemingly non-personal in the cosmos. Therefore there are BOTH 'personal' and 'non-personal' aspects of 'God' within Creation while anything 'personal' is something that is experienced between personalities.

    Otherwise, I've held a more Unitarian monotheistic or monist theology, more panentheistic, but all aspects of God and the male and female qualities of soul and spirit are experienced personally, thru aspects of 'personality', so...this can include a more creedal definition of 'The Trinity' of Orthodox Christianity, as well as a more liberal inclusion of the divine feminine within a trinity of Father-Mother-Son, the Holy Spirit representing the feminine or 'divine Mother' aspect of God.

    As being more of a theosophist, I recognize the universal laws and principles of gender within the Creator and Creation. I would not push the Holy Spirit as being a female 'person' dogmatically, but only recognize God as being a Father and Mother to all creation, honoring the glory of God and respecting God's nature and parenting of creation as such. I would extend beyond orthodoxy, and see the divine feminine within both Judaism and Christianity, as Sophia (Wisdom), the Shekinah (indwelling presence), Holy Spirit. Our worship of God inherently must include the whole of God, all of God's being, qualities, nature, attributes, in their pure essence, no matter how such qualities are personified.

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    Welcome Tiger 2

    Your's is the best response and retort I've had here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Chair replied to Tambora:

    You are both absolutely correct about the Hebrew grammar, of course!

    If Holy Spirit had been a mature person instead of a thing, it would have been in either the masculine or the feminine in both Hebrew and NT Greek!

    For example, 'woman,' ' 'mother,' 'goddess,' 'maiden,' 'maidservant,' 'princess,' etc. are in the feminine gender in BOTH the NT and the OT.

    And 'God,' 'man,' 'priest,' 'prophet,' 'father,' 'prince,' etc. are in the masculine gender in BOTH the OT and the NT.

    But holy spirit is in the feminine gender in the OT (which has no neuter gender and most often uses the feminine gender instead).
    You mean when there is no gender the OT 'usually' uses a feminine gender but not always! This there for begs the question why didn't they use a masculine gender? (I don't know the answer to this, but do you?)

    Furthermore the NT Greek does use a neuter gender. And since 'holy spirit' in the NT is in the neuter gender, it means that it cannot be a mature person, but is something: A force or energy which God uses in numerous ways.
    I used to believe this but since discovering this gender issue I am not 100% sure. The purpose of this thread is to try and tease out what is really going on and you have given me food for thought. But as the Greek uses neuter for the Holy Spirit which classes it as not mature does this mean it is labelling it as a child or young woman (like Mary was when she conceived)? rather than a 'thing'? Is there a way of knowing this from the text?

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    I do not limit, confine or subscribe 'God' to the definitions of Orthodox Christian creed or dogmas, or any particular religious definition necessarily.....since the Infinite cannot be so sub-scribed.

    What I set forth in my commentary on the 'Father-Mother-God', or the feminine aspect of Deity is according to universal energy, principle, concept and nature, as both 'male' and 'female' interact within Creation.

    A Trinity of Father-Mother-Son within this context is rational to include in its comprehension, without one having to hold to a traditional-orthodox concept of 'The Trinity' as christian creeds define it, neither a dogmatic insistence for defining each aspect of the Godhead as 'persons' necessarily. I've detailed the various aspects, nuances and dimensions of 'personality' as God expresses his character/nature personally in relationships, and in other ways seemingly non-personal in the cosmos. Therefore there are BOTH 'personal' and 'non-personal' aspects of 'God' within Creation while anything 'personal' is something that is experienced between personalities.

    Otherwise, I've held a more Unitarian monotheistic or monist theology, more panentheistic, but all aspects of God and the male and female qualities of soul and spirit are experienced personally, thru aspects of 'personality', so...this can include a more creedal definition of 'The Trinity' of Orthodox Christianity, as well as a more liberal inclusion of the divine feminine within a trinity of Father-Mother-Son, the Holy Spirit representing the feminine or 'divine Mother' aspect of God.

    As being more of a theosophist, I recognize the universal laws and principles of gender within the Creator and Creation. I would not push the Holy Spirit as being a female 'person' dogmatically, but only recognize God as being a Father and Mother to all creation, honoring the glory of God and respecting God's nature and parenting of creation as such. I would extend beyond orthodoxy, and see the divine feminine within both Judaism and Christianity, as Sophia (Wisdom), the Shekinah (indwelling presence), Holy Spirit. Our worship of God inherently must include the whole of God, all of God's being, qualities, nature, attributes, in their pure essence, no matter how such qualities are personified.
    Thanks for that.

    Just before I became a Christian I had a very similar belief 'structure'. I had gone through quite a journey from birth:

    Agnostic.
    Faith based Christian.
    Agnostic.
    Atheist.
    Agnostic.
    Pantheist.
    Monotheist.
    Evidence based Christian.
    Born again Christian.
    Total Bible believing Christian.
    Water baptised Christian.
    Divine Purpose Driven Christian.

    I hope you receive the relation you need to become a believer.

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    Lightbulb Universal Matrix...............

    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Thanks for that.

    Just before I became a Christian I had a very similar belief 'structure'. I had gone through quite a journey from birth:

    Agnostic.
    Faith based Christian.
    Agnostic.
    Atheist.
    Agnostic.
    Pantheist.
    Monotheist.
    Evidence based Christian.
    Born again Christian.
    Total Bible believing Christian.
    Water baptised Christian.
    Divine Purpose Driven Christian.

    I hope you receive the relation you need to become a believer.
    Thank you,.....some of my journey is listed in my bio on my profile page - other links in my signature, and like to get some of my blogs and portal sites a bit organized. The subject of the 'divine feminine' is most wonderful, - I've tried to segway some of the posts here with my former posts on the 'divine Mother' (I'd catagorize it under 'divine Mother' probably, or extending into a more liberal neo-pagan nuance, under 'The Goddess'.

    The revelation of 'God' in my life includes the 'Christ-tradition' and more,... its universal, eclectic, all-inclusive, integral. At the heart, as a spiritualist, my sub-title of 'Eclectic Theosophist' sums me up well, but thats only having roots in the ancient wisdom traditions and esoteric science schools, while being 'free' to explore, study and research wherever my souls feels the draw of Spirit.

    My aim here in my writings so far, like all my commentary is to expound and exposit facets, dimensions and features I feel are pertinent to the feminine aspect of God, hence my general subject-heading of 'Deity and Gender' covers the context of the Mother in Creation. I think its great that an religionist recognize the truth of God in his masculine and feminine personifications, since Deity is the Parenting-Presence. Otherwise, all for me is a matter of engaging 'creative dialogue', enjoying the intercourse of sharing logos. Besides a more serious scholarly approach, I try to inject some humor from time to time, or play a little with some of the more rigid fundamentalist on the forum, who cant see the forest for the trees

    ~*~*~

    For those interested some comments from an eastern religious tradition perspective:

    I also draw from the eastern religious traditions and their veneration of the divine feminine, particularly from Sanatana Dharma (Vedic culture), the Mahadevi (Great Mother), and more recently the great saint/avatar Anandamayi Ma, and her universal teachings. She passed away in the early 80's, and during her life was respected as an incarnation of the divine Mother (Ma), - embodying/expressing those qualities and attributes of a 'blissful mother'. A beautiful video of older film footage and song honoring 'Ma' is here. Another commentary with a video meditation/song honoring 'Devi', within the sanskrit language is here. (one of my former understudies is Hinduism, so I resonate with some of its schools, holding the philosophical essence of 'yoga' at the heart, being the soul's union with Spirit).

    I include the fullness of the 'divine Mother' from both east and western religious traditions. In dissertations on the universal Mother in general, I'd include the various Goddess archetypes and traditions for another thread-idea. Respecting your thread, we'll focus on the Holy Spirit and the divine feminine within the Judeo-christian tradition. As shared earlier from an apocryphal gospel, Jesus called the Holy Spirit his mother, while another record indicates the 'fount of the Holy Spirit' coming upon Jesus, and the Spirit saying "This is my beloved Son". God the Spirit is the begetter(father) and birther(mother) of all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    Thank you,.....some of my journey is listed in my bio on my profile page - other links in my signature, and like to get some of my blogs and portal sites a bit organized. The subject of the 'divine feminine' is most wonderful, - I've tried to segway some of the posts here with my former posts on the 'divine Mother' (I'd catagorize it under 'divine Mother' probably, or extending into a more liberal neo-pagan nuance, under 'The Goddess'.

    The revelation of 'God' in my life includes the 'Christ-tradition' and more,... its universal, eclectic, all-inclusive, integral. At the heart, as a spiritualist, my sub-title of 'Eclectic Theosophist' sums me up well, but thats only having roots in the ancient wisdom traditions and esoteric science schools, while being 'free' to explore, study and research wherever my souls feels the draw of Spirit.

    My aim here in my writings so far, like all my commentary is to expound and exposit facets, dimensions and features I feel are pertinent to the feminine aspect of God, hence my general subject-heading of 'Deity and Gender' covers the context of the Mother in Creation. I think its great that an religionist recognize the truth of God in his masculine and feminine personifications, since Deity is the Parenting-Presence. Otherwise, all for me is a matter of engaging 'creative dialogue', enjoying the intercourse of sharing logos. Besides a more serious scholarly approach, I try to inject some humor from time to time, or play a little with some of the more rigid fundamentalist on the forum, who cant see the forest for the trees

    ~*~*~

    For those interested some comments from an eastern religious tradition perspective:

    I also draw from the eastern religious traditions and their veneration of the divine feminine, particularly from Sanatana Dharma (Vedic culture), the Mahadevi (Great Mother), and more recently the great saint/avatar Anandamayi Ma, and her universal teachings. She passed away in the early 80's, and during her life was respected as an incarnation of the divine Mother (Ma), - embodying/expressing those qualities and attributes of a 'blissful mother'. A beautiful video of older film footage and song honoring 'Ma' is here. Another commentary with a video meditation/song honoring 'Devi', within the sanskrit language is here. (one of my former understudies is Hinduism, so I resonate with some of its schools, holding the philosophical essence of 'yoga' at the heart, being the soul's union with Spirit).

    I include the fullness of the 'divine Mother' from both east and western religious traditions. In dissertations on the universal Mother in general, I'd include the various Goddess archetypes and traditions for another thread-idea. Respecting your thread, we'll focus on the Holy Spirit and the divine feminine within the Judeo-christian tradition. As shared earlier from an apocryphal gospel, Jesus called the Holy Spirit his mother, while another record indicates the 'fount of the Holy Spirit' coming upon Jesus, and the Spirit saying "This is my beloved Son". God the Spirit is the begetter(father) and birther(mother) of all.
    What do you think about Jesus?

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    Red face Ever a meta-theist........

    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    What do you think about Jesus?


    I think it best if we stick to the Holy Spirit as the feminine aspect of God for this thread? -

    Besides the biblical presentation of the personality named 'Jesus', and many other opinions about the person (as many 'versions' of Jesus as there are bible 'versions'), one can see my other commentaries on the subject (I think the 'post archives' for each post go back to the last 100 posts). - I often do add to the various 'Jesus is God' or 'Trinitarian vs. Unitarian' threads, at least some....although this subject is 'old hat',...and on this issue I'd refer to Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus became God' book as a basic primer on this. In the final analysis Jesus is who you make him out to be, as far as your own 'belief' or 'perception' is concerned.

    TO ME, as explained many times elsewhere, it matters not whether one is a 'Unitarian' or 'Trinitarian' believer, as this doctrinal perspective may not effect one's salvation or ability to serve God in the least, and be simply a provisional feature of one's theology. I just commented on this in one of my previous posts here (see my following posts as well). Since I come from a greater universal and transcendental view, I will admit to playing with the fundagelicals on this by positing my usual Unitarian perspective as a classical monotheist (which is mostly Unitarian by the way), and in my more liberal meta-perspective within a 'monist' world-view, which is more pantheistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post


    I think it best if we stick to the Holy Spirit as the feminine aspect of God for this thread? -

    Besides the biblical presentation of the personality named 'Jesus', and many other opinions about the person (as many 'versions' of Jesus as there are bible 'versions'), one can see my other commentaries on the subject (I think the 'post archives' for each post go back to the last 100 posts). - I often do add to the various 'Jesus is God' or 'Trinitarian vs. Unitarian' threads, at least some....although this subject is 'old hat',...and on this issue I'd refer to Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus became God' book as a basic primer on this. In the final analysis Jesus is who you make him out to be, as far as your own 'belief' or 'perception' is concerned.

    TO ME, as explained many times elsewhere, it matters not whether one is a 'Unitarian' or 'Trinitarian' believer, as this doctrinal perspective may not effect one's salvation or ability to serve God in the least, and be simply a provisional feature of one's theology. I just commented on this in one of my previous posts here (see my following posts as well). Since I come from a greater universal and transcendental view, I will admit to playing with the fundagelicals on this by positing my usual Unitarian perspective as a classical monotheist (which is mostly Unitarian by the way), and in my more liberal meta-perspective within a 'monist' world-view, which is more pantheistic.
    Yes your right I mustn't wonder to far from the OP, I only did that because of its importance to you personally but I will not attempt to witness to you. I was merely clarifying your salvation status. But you do need jesus. Sorry I couldn't help myself but it's fundamental and absolute in its importance.

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    @Tigger2

    Hi, I was hoping you would answer the two questions I asked?:

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5171350

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    Watchman:
    But as the Greek uses neuter for the Holy Spirit which classes it as not mature does this mean it is labelling it as a child or young woman (like Mary was when she conceived)? rather than a 'thing'? Is there a way of knowing this from the text?
    It is much less likely that the HS, which has been around for at least billions of years, is an immature person. Since the Hebrew uses the feminine gender for females and neuter (things), and the Greek uses the neuter gender for things and very young persons/animals, the reasonable conclusion is that the HS is a thing (power, force, etc). It is extremely unlikely that the HS is an immature female (girl).

    Is it ever given pronouns in English Bible translations indicating that it is feminine ('she,' 'her,' 'herself,' 'hers')?

    I believe that the HS in the earliest Christian writings was always referred to as an 'it' or a 'he,' but never 'she.'

    With the possible exception of HS, it is not difficult to understand the sex of a person in Scripture. Even those persons in heaven (who are sexless) are given a masculine gender (angels, God, the Son, the Father, etc.) by the writers of scripture.

    There is every reason to accept the HS as a thing, not a little girl.

    As for Mary, before she became pregnant, she was called a virgin (Luke 1:27) This word is in the feminine gender and feminine pronouns are used for her. So she obviously was considered a mature person even then.
    Last edited by Tigger 2; February 21st, 2018 at 09:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    Watchman:

    It is much less likely that the HS, which has been around for at least billions of years, is an immature person. Since the Hebrew uses the feminine gender for neuter (things), and the Greek uses the neuter gender for things and very young persons/animals, the reasonable conclusion is that the HS is a thing (power, force, etc). It is extremely unlikely that the HS is an immature female (girl).

    Is it ever given pronouns indicating that it is feminine ('she,' 'her,' 'herself,' 'hers')?

    I believe that the HS in the earliest Christian writings was always referred to as an 'it' or a 'he,' but never 'she.'

    With the possible exception of HS, it is not difficult to understand the sex of a person in Scripture. Even those persons in heaven (who are sexless) are given a masculine gender (angels, God, the Son, the Father, etc.) by the writers of scripture.

    There is every reason to accept the HS as a thing, not a little girl.
    Isn't the HS the Spirit? Do they produce babies? I don't think so. So there is no gender.

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    It is amazing people come up with so weird theories.

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