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Thread: Is the Holy Spirit Female?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    What do you think is my point?
    You gave your point in your first post in this thread, post #7:

    "There is no pronoun "she" in those verses ( I only checked the first few- but I see where your error is). In fact, there is no pronoun at all.

    What you are running into is the fact that in Biblical Hebrew, as in many languages, both ancient and modern, all objects have gender. A table is either male or female. Likewise a chair, or a cup- or the wind/spirit. English is an unusual language in not having this feature, so an English speaker might read more into this than there really is.

    So the wind or spirit has the feminine gender,which affects what form of the verb is used, but does not imply that the inanimate object is "male" or "female".

    You will notice that the translations do not put the word "she" into the text. The translators knew how Hebrew works, so they avoided that mistake.

    You may consider studying Biblical Hebrew.

    Chair"

    Did you forget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    You gave your point in your first post in this thread, post #7:

    "There is no pronoun "she" in those verses ( I only checked the first few- but I see where your error is). In fact, there is no pronoun at all.

    What you are running into is the fact that in Biblical Hebrew, as in many languages, both ancient and modern, all objects have gender. A table is either male or female. Likewise a chair, or a cup- or the wind/spirit. English is an unusual language in not having this feature, so an English speaker might read more into this than there really is.

    So the wind or spirit has the feminine gender,which affects what form of the verb is used, but does not imply that the inanimate object is "male" or "female".

    You will notice that the translations do not put the word "she" into the text. The translators knew how Hebrew works, so they avoided that mistake.

    You may consider studying Biblical Hebrew.

    Chair"

    Did you forget.
    No, I did not forget. That is exactly my point. I have nothing to say about the Holy Spirit being a "person". I am just pointing out some grammatical facts. I gave several links that explain this as well. But for some reason you think I am making this up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    No, I did not forget. That is exactly my point. I have nothing to say about the Holy Spirit being a "person". I am just pointing out some grammatical facts. I gave several links that explain this as well. But for some reason you think I am making this up.
    Your going round in circles. I've answered all your previous posts and everyone can see that you have nothing further to add as you can't find this mysterious grammar rule to prove she means he.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Your going round in circles. I've answered all your previous posts and everyone can see that you have nothing further to add as you can't find this mysterious grammar rule to prove she means he.
    Dern it, I am NOT and never have been, trying to prove that she means he. That is why I asked you what you thought my point is.


    Ruach is in the feminine. If it was a person, it would be a female. But the fact that it is a feminine noun does not, in any way, show that Ruach is a person, or a female person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Dern it, I am NOT and never have been, trying to prove that she means he. That is why I asked you what you thought my point is.


    Ruach is in the feminine. If it was a person, it would be a female. But the fact that it is a feminine noun does not, in any way, show that Ruach is a person, or a female person.
    And because you're not a Christian that is why you don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person, (a female person). As I said that is your biggest problem. Seriously; what do you think happened to Jesus body after He died? http://creately.com/diagram/gzqv8c5z...inDk3jxQMEYQA=

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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    And because you're not a Christian that is why you don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person, (a female person). As I said that is your biggest problem. Seriously; what do you think happened to Jesus body after He died? http://creately.com/diagram/gzqv8c5z...inDk3jxQMEYQA=
    So, you understand that the feminine noun in itself does not indicate that the Holy Spirit is a female person?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    So, you understand that the feminine noun in itself does not indicate that the Holy Spirit is a female person?
    I recognise first and foremost that the Holy Spirit is a Person. Any Christian or Jew would tell you that. I then also believe that when it says she is a she, that she is a she and not a he.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Again with the awful accusation that the Third Person of the Trinity is no more than an inanimate object! What you you think She or God thinks about that? Arrogant and ignorant come to mind.
    "Inanimate" is an ironic choice of word. Thanks for the laugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Yeah like it has nothing to do with the fact you can't prove your grammar theory.
    Grammar theory, lol. There's another theory that adding s to the end of a word pluralizes it... I suppose you will want mathematical proof of that one, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    I recognise first and foremost that the Holy Spirit is a Person. Any Christian or Jew would tell you that.
    Jews would not tell you that. Nor would many Christians.
    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    I then also believe that when it says she is a she, that she is a she and not a he.
    In Hebrew a cup is female, and a house is male. That does not make either of them a person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Jews would not tell you that. Nor would many Christians.
    Yes they would.




    In Hebrew a cup is female, and a house is male. That does not make either of them a person.
    She certainly is mysterious, there are very few verses that describe her. Typical women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    So, you understand that the feminine noun in itself does not indicate that the Holy Spirit is a female person?
    You changed the subject, rather than admit that you are wrong.
    Understandable.

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    'Holy Spirit' in the NT Greek text is in the neuter gender and therefore the neuter pronouns meaning 'it,' 'itself,' are used with it in the NT Greek!

    Any strictly literal Bible translation would have to use 'it' for the holy spirit. Since it is really not a person, but God's active force -or power-, a literal translation would be helpful in this case.

    'Holy spirit' in the OT Hebrew text is in the feminine gender.

    "a 1. The Hebrew, like all Semitic languages, recognizes only two genders in the noun, a masculine and a feminine. Inanimate objects and abstract ideas, which other languages sometimes indicate by the neuter,
    are regarded in Hebrew as masculine or feminine, more often the latter [feminine]"! - Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, p. 222, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1910. (also seventeenth edition)

    So, in the NT 'holy spirit' is neuter. And in the OT it is feminine (which is often used for neuter).
    And when we combine these two, we find that 'holy spirit' is certainly not in the masculine gender, but, instead, is neuter!

    This is important because in both the Old Testament and the New, a mature person will have a literal personal name ('Jesus,' 'John,' 'Mary,' etc.) and literal descriptive words ('man,' 'woman,' 'husband,' 'priest,' etc.) in the gender which matches the sex of that person.

    Of course those spirit persons in heaven ('God,' 'angels,' 'cherubim,' 'seraphim,' etc.) who are sexless are given the masculine gender in the Scriptures as a measure of importance.

    But the 'holy spirit' (literal descriptive word) is neuter, and it has no personal name (which a real person as important as the HS would have).

    ..................................

    "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary.

    "The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone" - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 575, Vol. 13, 1967.

    "In the NT there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity. The spirit is conceived as an impersonal power by which God effects his will through Christ." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), p. 344.

    "It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power." - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984.

    "As in earlier Jewish thought, 'pneuma' [spirit] denotes that power which [not 'who'] man experiences as relating him to the spiritual realm .... But by far the most frequent use of 'pneuma' in the NT ... is as a reference to the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, that power which is most immediately of God as to source and nature." - p.693, Vol. 3, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986.

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    Lightbulb Further enhancing our discussion.......

    ~*~*~

    First to all following, I recommend reading my former posts here on 'God' and 'gender' in their metaphysical, relational and esoteric significance. This is vital in going on further in our research into the Holy Spirit as 'feminine'. God's character and nature has both 'masculine' and 'feminine' qualities and attributes, - these are expressed thru 'personality', as 'God' is also the SOURCE of all 'personality' and all 'personalities' - now a few points towards the dialogue below -

    Quote Originally Posted by chair

    Everything has a gender in Hebrew. "Wind" or "Spirit" RUACH is female. I have never said otherwise. but this does not mean that RUACH is a person. Inanimate objects have gender. Tables, rocks- everything.
    -----------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post

    Again with the awful accusation that the Third Person of the Trinity is no more than an inanimate object! What you you think She or God thinks about that? Arrogant and ignorant come to mind.
    Chair makes a solid observation that while 'wind' and 'spirit in the hebrew is rendered as 'female' in gender, this does not necessarily make wind or spirit a female personality or 'person'. This would be accepted by most all orthodox Jews, since they do not assume or propose in their theology, the Spirit of God being a person, much less a person within a Trinity. I gather liberal progressive Jews of a more mystical inclination would honor Wisdom or the Shekinah as a feminine quality, spiritual presence or expression of 'God', since 'God' is both 'Father' and 'Mother' in all realms of relational reality, where procreation exists and the duality of both genders synergized.... engage one another. In fact as I expounded on earlier,...this is a universal truth revealed in the regeneration of life (Nature).

    yinyang.jpg

    It is WOTW's insistence in holding to a presumed belief that that Holy Spirit MUST be a 'person' within a divine Trinity that is at issue here, but a purely monotheistic unitarian view does not presume or necessitate such a view, as the Spirit of God does not need to be a 'person' per se....but will naturally embody, express and reveal the 'personality' or 'character' of 'God' in its activity, since that very Spirit is God's own. So, one can view the Holy Spirit as being feminine, without necessarily making that spirit into a person. It just so happens that since 'God' is both a 'Father' and 'Mother' within creation....Deity has within it, the essence and and total potentiality of all 'masculine' and 'feminine' qualities, however those might be expressed thru 'personality' and beyond. Remember....YHWH is INFINITE. - He/She/IT contains all genders, as source and potentializer, but is also beyond all differentiation, duality, division as well.....as Pure Spirit.

    I happen to honor 'God' as both 'Father' and 'Mother' EQUALLY....and this is of utmost importance, as essential, relationally speaking, as to honor both 'Creator' and 'Creation'. It could not be otherwise, since 'God' and 'Man' are revealed in mirror image as BOTH genders, equally in synergy. The two are one.

    ~*~*~


    I highly recommend Simona Rich's study of the Holy Spirit here and here. (these are offered as research and educational resources for our study of the subject fostering further discussion)

  16. #104
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    Lightbulb God is the origin of both genders, and expresses BOTH......

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger 2 View Post
    'Holy Spirit' in the NT Greek text is in the neuter gender and therefore the neuter pronouns meaning 'it,' 'itself,' are used with it in the NT Greek!

    Any strictly literal Bible translation would have to use 'it' for the holy spirit. Since it is really not a person, but God's active force -or power-, a literal translation would be helpful in this case.

    'Holy spirit' in the OT Hebrew text is in the feminine gender.

    "a 1. The Hebrew, like all Semitic languages, recognizes only two genders in the noun, a masculine and a feminine. Inanimate objects and abstract ideas, which other languages sometimes indicate by the neuter,
    are regarded in Hebrew as masculine or feminine, more often the latter [feminine]"! - Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, p. 222, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1910. (also seventeenth edition)

    So, in the NT 'holy spirit' is neuter. And in the OT it is feminine (which is often used for neuter).
    And when we combine these two, we find that 'holy spirit' is certainly not in the masculine gender, but, instead, is neuter!

    This is important because in both the Old Testament and the New, a mature person will have a literal personal name ('Jesus,' 'John,' 'Mary,' etc.) and literal descriptive words ('man,' 'woman,' 'husband,' 'priest,' etc.) in the gender which matches the sex of that person.

    Of course those spirit persons in heaven ('God,' 'angels,' 'cherubim,' 'seraphim,' etc.) who are sexless are given the masculine gender in the Scriptures as a measure of importance.

    But the 'holy spirit' (literal descriptive word) is neuter, and it has no personal name (which a real person as important as the HS would have).

    ..................................

    "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary.

    "The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone" - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 575, Vol. 13, 1967.

    "In the NT there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity. The spirit is conceived as an impersonal power by which God effects his will through Christ." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), p. 344.

    "It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power." - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984.

    "As in earlier Jewish thought, 'pneuma' [spirit] denotes that power which [not 'who'] man experiences as relating him to the spiritual realm .... But by far the most frequent use of 'pneuma' in the NT ... is as a reference to the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, that power which is most immediately of God as to source and nature." - p.693, Vol. 3, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986.

    Yes, - as noted earlier on God and gender here, and in a previous response to your note of 'neuter gender' of the spirit here. - I make the case with understanding the context of 'God and gender'....where such an understanding would recognize that to honor 'God' in totality, would include our recognition and relational-experience of 'Deity' as being to us, both 'Father' and 'Mother', as as divine Personality...RELATING to us in both 'masculine' and 'feminine' ways, since God begets us, and nutures us in the full capacity of both gender-expressions.

    While I may not claim a dogmatic belief of the Holy Spirit being somehow a female 'person', which I dont think is necessary...it stands to reason and logic that the Holy Spirit embodies, reveals and expresses the feminine aspect of Deity, as a nuturing mothering Spirit, and that Wisdom (Sophia/Chokmah) and the Shekinah...also represent feminine expressions of God's character. So, I dont think just limiting Spirit to a 'neuter gender' helps us in any way, except to note a limitation of greek linguistics, since the Spirit of 'God' MUST and WILL by nature...have all the qualities and attributes of both genders. It would naturally be both rational and logical, in fact 'appropriate' to see the Holy Spirit as the feminine aspect of 'God' (without necesarily personifying this spirit). It just so happens that God is Spirit, so God's personality will also be contained in and expressed thru His Spirit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    ~*~*~

    First to all following, I recommend reading my former posts here on 'God' and 'gender' in their metaphysical, relational and esoteric significance. This is vital in going on further in our research into the Holy Spirit as 'feminine'. God's character and nature has both 'masculine' and 'feminine' qualities and attributes, - these are expressed thru 'personality', as 'God' is also the SOURCE of all 'personality' and all 'personalities' - now a few points towards the dialogue below -



    -----------------------



    Chair makes a solid observation that while 'wind' and 'spirit in the hebrew is rendered as 'female' in gender, this does not necessarily make wind or spirit a female personality or 'person'. This would be accepted by most all orthodox Jews, since they do not assume or propose in their theology, the Spirit of God being a person, much less a person within a Trinity. I gather liberal progressive Jews of a more mystical inclination would honor Wisdom or the Shekinah as a feminine quality, spiritual presence or expression of 'God', since 'God' is both 'Father' and 'Mother' in all realms of relational reality, where procreation exists and the duality of both genders synergized.... engage one another. In fact as I expounded on earlier,...this is a universal truth revealed in the regeneration of life (Nature).

    yinyang.jpg

    It is WOTW's insistence in holding to a presumed belief that that Holy Spirit MUST be a 'person' within a divine Trinity that is at issue here, but a purely monotheistic unitarian view does not presume or necessitate such a view, as the Spirit of God does not need to be a 'person' per se....but will naturally embody, express and reveal the 'personality' or 'character' of 'God' in its activity, since that very Spirit is God's own. So, one can view the Holy Spirit as being feminine, without necessarily making that spirit into a person. It just so happens that since 'God' is both a 'Father' and 'Mother' within creation....Deity has within it, the essence and and total potentiality of all 'masculine' and 'feminine' qualities, however those might be expressed thru 'personality' and beyond. Remember....YHWH is INFINITE. - He/She/IT contains all genders, as source and potentializer, but is also beyond all differentiation, duality, division as well.....as Pure Spirit.

    I happen to honor 'God' as both 'Father' and 'Mother' EQUALLY....and this is of utmost importance, as essential, relationally speaking, as to honor both 'Creator' and 'Creation'. It could not be otherwise, since 'God' and 'Man' are revealed in mirror image as BOTH genders, equally in synergy. The two are one.

    ~*~*~


    I highly recommend Simona Rich's study of the Holy Spirit here and here. (these are offered as research and educational resources for our study of the subject fostering further discussion)
    Yes I do believe the Holy Spirit is a person and not an inanimate object, because She can speak for example. Inanimate objects can't do that. Your 'insistence' that God the Father is both male and female is as observed as calling the Holy Spirit an inanimate object. Jesus was a man, not a woman and Jesus said that if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father. They are both male, not male and female.

    When God said 'let US make man in OUR image', Eve was made in the image of the female Holy Spirit and is why she looked different to Adam who was made in God the Fathers image. Two different images (US & OUR), two different beings (Adam and EVE). Otherwise Eve would have also been male (let's call him Steve) and the human race would never have been more that two people.

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