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Thread: What if climate change is real and human caused--what should Christians do about it?

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Did I use such platitudes?
    Don't know.

    Almost everything we can discuss related to this topic is going to involve some kind of tradeoffs, I think.
    Probably.

    But global warming I mean climate change is still a load of nonsense.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Ah, what's on right wing wackadoodle internet sites allows Stripe to "believe".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    Ah, what's on right wing wackadoodle internet sites allows Stripe to "believe".
    Even if climate change is man made (wow, what a dumb concept), nothing can stop it. It's all a scam, just like the switch from R12 to R134, useless.

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    Over 4000 post club gcthomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Even if climate change is man made (wow, what a dumb concept), nothing can stop it. It's all a scam, just like the switch from R12 to R134, useless.
    R12 was banned in the mid-1990s, and look at the effect on the ozone hole…

    https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/sta...ogy_annual.png

    Ozone decline levels out almost immediately, and has now started to recover.

    Do you have any evidence to the contrary, or are you just full of hot air?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcthomas View Post
    R12 was banned in the mid-1990s, and look at the effect on the ozone hole…

    https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/sta...ogy_annual.png

    Ozone decline levels out almost immediately, and has now started to recover.

    Do you have any evidence to the contrary, or are you just full of hot air?
    Just testing you.

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    Over 2500 post club WatchmanOnTheWall's Avatar
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    The climate has always been changing and will continue too till Jesus comes in 2029 so with tribulation beginning in 2022 we have bigger things to concern ourselves with. Most of us here will be dead within the next 10 years.

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    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Something people seem to forget is God's promise to mankind.

    While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, Cold and heat, Winter and summer, And day and night Shall not cease.” - Genesis 8:22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

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    Over 1500 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Don't know.



    Probably.

    But global warming I mean climate change is still a load of nonsense.
    I understand many feel that way. That's why the title of the thread starts with "If".

    And I know most Christians see the need to tend, as good stewards, the environment of the planet God has made for us. This might be in the form of controlling physical pollution, like plastics in the dumps or oceans, or smog. Can you say that China's smog problem is not a bad thing?

    So if China can affect its climate (air quality can be considered part of climate), and Los Angeles can negatively affect its climate, as the population grows so that more and more cities like LA and Beijing are needed to house the world's population, don't you think we will have more and more smog?

    What about Chicago? It was originally called the "windy city" because of it's politicians, but they found that the construction of buildings funneled the wind through the streets, too--an effect also noticed in other cities with tall buildings. Again, this is a local manifestation, but if there are many "windy cities" around the globe, then don't we start to see a "global" effect caused by humans.

    So, to get back on topic, Stripe, IF we could discern some global effect, what does the bible say that can help us to deal with it in a way that is neither harmful to people or harmful to the environment God gave us?

    By the way, global climate change, caused by humans, is documented in the bible in numerous places--some of temporary effect and some more extensive in time. The most obvious is Noah's flood. Because of the wickedness of the people, God brought a flood that destroyed the WHOLE EARTH (that would count as "global", don't you think?). Many Christians believe, as I do, that there was a lasting change in climate, even though the flood itself was of limited extent. And while God no doubt purposely brought about the flood, mankind no doubt also brought about the flood unwittingly.

    God promises a second global climate change event in 2Pet 3:10. Is that something that is fixed in date, or is it something that could be delayed or even prevented if the world starts following Christ? And Christ-followers stop acting wickedly?

    Should we start with that for a first run of what Christians should do about global climate change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    What are you suggesting? That we get rid of people, or that we change America's standard of living? If the latter (since the former is not within the authority God gave us), what do you propose and how do you propose to do it?

    Or, is it possible to provide the same standard of living with better, more natural materials? Not that I think it is our responsibility to provide a standard of living to anyone. We should, if we have such responsibility at all, make sure that the people have the ability to provide such standard of living for themselves. (This is not a commentary on whether we help the poor, but a commentary on whether we should be equalizing all living conditions.)
    I'm not suggesting anything. I'm simply stating the facts as I understand them. The world currently has over 7 billion people. According to some population projections by 2100 the world's population could hit 11 billion. How would we provide the same standard of living with better, more natural materials? Everything we create originally comes from the Earth. Iron ore, oil, trees, water, precious metals, gemstones, food all come from the Earth. We make finished products from these natural resources. It doesn't matter if we try to use natural materials to improve everyone's standard of living because there will always be scarcity. If the population hit 11 billion where is all that food and water going to come from to feed all those people? I can foresee water wars and wars over farm land being fought. Shoot, people are starting to steal sand to make concrete today.

    https://science.howstuffworks.com/en...ng-tons-it.htm

    So it's simply not possible to give every human on Earth a high living standard. So the current system in place where the very few wealthy nations hording and controlling all the natural resources will continue.
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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I understand many feel that way. That's why the title of the thread starts with "If".
    I'd rather deal with issues without the "if."

    By the way, global climate change, caused by humans, is documented in the bible in numerous places--some of temporary effect and some more extensive in time. The most obvious is Noah's flood. Because of the wickedness of the people, God brought a flood that destroyed the WHOLE EARTH (that would count as "global", don't you think?). Many Christians believe, as I do, that there was a lasting change in climate, even though the flood itself was of limited extent. And while God no doubt purposely brought about the flood, mankind no doubt also brought about the flood unwittingly.

    God promises a second global climate change event in 2Pet 3:10. Is that something that is fixed in date, or is it something that could be delayed or even prevented if the world starts following Christ? And Christ-followers stop acting wickedly?
    That's more like it. :like:

    That's the funny thing about liberals: Their ideas are nonsense, but they give them names that could apply to real things.

    The global flood could indeed be referred to as catastrophic, anthropogenic climate change, and what is to come could have the same description.

    However, the science behind those things and our response to them would not include banning plastic bags and saving polar bears.

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    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    So it's simply not possible to give every human on Earth a high living standard. So the current system in place where the very few wealthy nations hording and controlling all the natural resources will continue.
    I think it is possible to have an Earth where all humans have a high living standard but not until a few lessons are digested. It can't be done on an ever increasing population. That is lesson #1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    I'm not suggesting anything. I'm simply stating the facts as I understand them. The world currently has over 7 billion people. According s some population projections by 2100 the world's population could hit 11 billion. How would we provide the same standard of living with better, more natural materials? Everything we create originally comes from the Earth. Iron ore, oil, trees, water, precious metals, gemstones, food all come from the Earth. We make finished products from these natural resources. It doesn't matter if we try to use natural materials to improve everyone's standard of living because there will always be scarcity. If the population hit 11 billion where is all that food and water going to come from to feed all those people? I can foresee water wars and wars over farm land being fought. Shoot, people are starting to steal sand to make concrete today.

    https://science.howstuffworks.com/en...ng-tons-it.htm

    So it's simply not possible to give every human on Earth a high living standard. So the current system in place where the very few wealthy nations hording and controlling all the natural resources will continue.
    I am reminded of scripture that says there will always be the poor. John 12:8
    That seems to indicate that no matter how bad or good things are throughout history, the poor are still going to be here.

    We've been dumping money into a welfare system for over 80 years now, and the poor communities are still just as lacking.

    "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

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    Over 4000 post club gcthomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeset View Post
    I think it is possible to have an Earth where all humans have a high living standard but not until a few lessons are digested. It can't be done on an ever increasing population. That is lesson #1.
    That's true. Interestingly, when nations become wealthy and develop a broad middle class, you get both liberal democracy and lower birth rates. The way to slow birth rates is to make everyone feel they have a financial stake in the world's economy. How to do that without strip mining the planet? Well we have to make our resourses spread thinner and more effectively.

    We can start with not simply burning all that fantastic, long chain hydrocarbon resource that is essential for everything from plastics to medicines. Sure, burn the plastic after it has meen multiply recycled and can't be used any more, but not freshly drilled oil and gas.

    A great big wind turbine field has just been built offshore from where I live - I could see it out my window now if it wasn't dark already. It has just started generating this week. The UK still burns too much, but we went a while over the SUmmer with all our coal stations shut down, and more than 50% of all our electricity needs coming from renewables. We are converting to hybrid and electric cars and the polluting diesils are becoming restricted around city centres.

    It is possible, and here it is mostly happening without government intervention, since companies and populations are seeing which way the wind is blowing. We are heading for a low carbon and low resource use future, but too many are kicking and screaming for the old ways to presevere even as ecosystems are collapsing. Will we get there in time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Here's a for-instance:
    Let's say that one of the problems causing warming is cooking/warming fires (this can be applied to more or less modern cooking and heating devices), and the carbon dioxide and pollution both create conditions that contribute in some way to the warming, but they are necessary for people to survive, supposedly. Thus, if we outlaw or severely limit such fires, we run the risk of starving some people, or exposing them to cold, or causing them to to have to drink unsanitary water, or whatever. On the other hand, if we do nothing, some people are likely to lose their homes or their lives because of the effects of global warming/climate change. Thus we face the problem of not loving our neighbor in either case.

    Consider the following from a biblical standpoint (and there are likely other things that will need to be added to this list as we go forward):
    • God gave man dominion over His creation.
    • God made man in His image (unlike any other animal or plant).
    • Loving God entails love for His creation.
    • Loving God entails love especially for those made in His image.
    • Science is important and necessary, but isn't always right, as man is fallible.
    • Biblical interpretation is important and necessary, but it also isn't always right, as man is fallible.


    What should we be doing????
    We should be doing what we can in our personal lives to live as good stewards and as it relates to public policy we should support policies that will make the biggest impacts. Obviously the difficulty is in the details. As you say in a later post there will be trade-offs. Those who can best manage the changes should bear the most burden. It's tough to put this into a hypothetical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean View Post
    I'm not suggesting anything. I'm simply stating the facts as I understand them. The world currently has over 7 billion people. According to some population projections by 2100 the world's population could hit 11 billion. How would we provide the same standard of living with better, more natural materials? Everything we create originally comes from the Earth. Iron ore, oil, trees, water, precious metals, gemstones, food all come from the Earth. We make finished products from these natural resources. It doesn't matter if we try to use natural materials to improve everyone's standard of living because there will always be scarcity. If the population hit 11 billion where is all that food and water going to come from to feed all those people? I can foresee water wars and wars over farm land being fought. Shoot, people are starting to steal sand to make concrete today.

    https://science.howstuffworks.com/en...ng-tons-it.htm

    So it's simply not possible to give every human on Earth a high living standard. So the current system in place where the very few wealthy nations hording and controlling all the natural resources will continue.
    Just this morning I heard an interview with someone talking about the coming population explosion in Africa and how we'll be able to generate enough food.

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