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Thread: Righteousness and Justification by Faith

  1. #46
    Over 4000 post club marhig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    I have a rule reading Paul, and when somebody quotes Paul. I ask myself, have I read the whole book, because Paul always has a train of thought, and individual quotes can sound like they are going against the whole train of thought.

    Paul tries to tell us that the law has a purpose, like a screwdriver has a purpose, and that purpose is not to get us made righteous or saved. Using the law for this purpose would be like using a screwdriver as a hammer - something which I have tried to do when no hammer is available.
    Those under the law can be saved if they have faith, but the law cannot save without faith. Paul never went against Gods laws or doing works, he means that doing works without faith are dead works. It's like when people go to church on a Sunday, look the part and never think of God or do his will the rest of the week, but are quite happy thinking they are saved, those who are truly being saved will be starting to overcome this world and the sins of their flesh through Christ by the power of the Spirit.

    But many live to please their flesh first and foremost. Their faith is weak, many don't have true faith in God, they are all lip service and do it all for self gain, these are false witnesses who carry others away, foolish people who love the praise of men and to look the part. God's true people become servants they lay down their lives, and live according to God's will, but they will do the works, these come hand in hand with the fruits of the Spirit. We cannot get anywhere by works alone, but we can through faith do the works as Christ by the Spirit cleanses our hearts. If Christ is within our hearts, we will be grow more and more like him and as we decease he will increase in us. If we are truly born of God. Jesus said that those not willing to take up their cross are not worthy of him.

    He that saves his life will lose it, but he that loses his life for Christ's sake shall save it.

    And here's Paul talking about works

    Titus 1:16

    They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    2 Timothy 3

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works
    Last edited by marhig; December 6th, 2017 at 04:07 AM.

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    I understand what you are saying but his word is being used to divide His followers.
    That's the thing though, they are changing Paul's word to suit their doctrine. Paul said that through faith we will establish the law. He also says that those born of God have the laws written in the hearts and in their minds. But we don't here these verses mentioned here often, or any of the verses where Paul talks about works (as seen on my post above) I believe that Paul would have spoken hard against some if he saw how they listen to what he says and ignore what Jesus says. Jesus gospel is the gospel, and I know that Paul preached the same gospel. To ignore the teachings of Jesus and not live by them is going against the Holy Spirit, which is blasphemy. Jesus' words are Spirit and they are life, and to say "they are not for me" is wrong. They are for all of us, and those who belong to the body of Christ are Israel, all those circumcised of the heart are true Jews.

    Meshak, please don't judge Paul on what others say falsely, he's a true man of God and a strong apostle, I hope you see through their false teachings and see that what a Paul is preaching is the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Those under the law can be saved if they have faith, but the law cannot save without faith. Paul never went against Gods laws or doing works, he means that doing works without faith are dead works.
    Marhig what you say is correct. Have you any ideas why God emphasises faith so much?

    Faith is a strange character trait. In a dog we may value loyalty, or obedience, or some other trait of a particular breed. But why faith?

    When God led Israel out of Egypt, they saw more miracles and proof of God than any other people. When the spies brought back a bad report, they could not muster the faith, and God rejected that generation. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

    There must be something God has planned for the future which requires all those saved to have faith forever into the future. Faith is required where there is a leap into the unknown. It's also required so that one does not sit questioning God for all eternity. If He says for us to do something, we will have to do it even if there is a voice silently saying "why? in our heads.

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  6. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Marhig what you say is correct. Have you any ideas why God emphasises faith so much?

    Faith is a strange character trait. In a dog we may value loyalty, or obedience, or some other trait of a particular breed. But why faith?

    When God led Israel out of Egypt, they saw more miracles and proof of God than any other people. When the spies brought back a bad report, they could not muster the faith, and God rejected that generation. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

    There must be something God has planned for the future which requires all those saved to have faith forever into the future. Faith is required where there is a leap into the unknown. It's also required so that one does not sit questioning God for all eternity. If He says for us to do something, we will have to do it even if there is a voice silently saying "why? in our heads.


    Perhaps it is when we begin to do what He says that we begin to find out "why", (and perhaps that is why so many do not understand very many of the "why's", lol).

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    Over 4000 post club marhig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Marhig what you say is correct. Have you any ideas why God emphasises faith so much?

    Faith is a strange character trait. In a dog we may value loyalty, or obedience, or some other trait of a particular breed. But why faith?

    When God led Israel out of Egypt, they saw more miracles and proof of God than any other people. When the spies brought back a bad report, they could not muster the faith, and God rejected that generation. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

    There must be something God has planned for the future which requires all those saved to have faith forever into the future. Faith is required where there is a leap into the unknown. It's also required so that one does not sit questioning God for all eternity. If He says for us to do something, we will have to do it even if there is a voice silently saying "why? in our heads.
    Yes, and to have true faith is to go through our lives completely trusting in God and we should listen to our conscience and obey him and his word and follow Jesus in baring witness to the truth.

    John 21

    Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post


    Perhaps it is when we begin to do what He says that we begin to find out "why", (and perhaps that is why so many do not understand very many of the "why's", lol).
    Then I have come to the perfect place. So I will ask you Daqq "Have you any ideas why God emphasises faith so much?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Yes, and to have true faith is to go through our lives completely trusting in God and we should listen to our conscience and obey him and his word and follow Jesus in baring witness to the truth.
    I can see why it takes faith to believe in an unseen God today.

    I want to know why God is developing faith in us today, presumably because we will exercise it forever. What will we be doing forever that will require faith?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Then I have come to the perfect place. So I will ask you Daqq "Have you any ideas why God emphasises faith so much?"
    I believe one of the reasons is because true belief works its way out through genuine patience over the long run and ultimately proves faith and love. Faith therefore is proven by deeds and actions just as the epistle of James teaches. Father Abraham truly believed the Word which was spoken to him in Gen 15, and it was accounted unto him as righteousness: but that belief was put to the test when he was commanded to offer up Isaac, many, many years later, (in Gen 22). The events of Gen 22 were well over twenty years later in the life of Abraham, and yet, look what James says concerning the matter:

    James 2:21-24 KJV
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


    1) Was not Abraham our father justified by works? (offering up Isaac, his deeds)
    2) See how faith "worked together" with his works? (and by his deeds his faith was perfected).
    3) ONLY THEN was the scripture finally fulfilled, (many years later after long patience and endurance), which says, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted unto him as righteousness, (Gen 15:6).
    4) By deeds, actions, working out ones faithfulness by walking with Elohim in His Word, through long and patient endurance, the patient endurance of the saints, (or "holy ones", the faithful), by these works and deeds a person is justified, (James 2:24 and many other scripture passages).

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    I believe one of the reasons is because true belief works its way out through genuine patience over the long run and ultimately proves faith and love. Faith therefore is proven by deeds and actions just as the epistle of James teaches. Father Abraham truly believed the Word which was spoken to him in Gen 15, and it was accounted unto him as righteousness: but that belief was put to the test when he was commanded to offer up Isaac, many, many years later, (in Gen 22). The events of Gen 22 were well over twenty years later in the life of Abraham, and yet, look what James says concerning the matter:

    James 2:21-24 KJV
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


    1) Was not Abraham our father justified by works? (offering up Isaac, his deeds)
    2) See how faith "worked together" with his works? (and by his deeds his faith was perfected).
    3) ONLY THEN was the scripture finally fulfilled, (many years later after long patience and endurance), which says, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted unto him as righteousness, (Gen 15:6).
    4) By deeds, actions, working out ones faithfulness by walking with Elohim in His Word, through long and patient endurance, the patient endurance of the saints, (or "holy ones", the faithful), by these works and deeds a person is justified, (James 2:24 and many other scripture passages).
    Good points. The Heb 11 "faith chapter" has a work associated with each hero of faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    The Heb 11 "faith chapter" has a work associated with each hero of faith.
    Amen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post

    Meshak, please don't judge Paul on what others say falsely,
    I am sorry but I do believe he is not a good teacher of Jesus' gospel.
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    I am sorry but I do believe he is not a good teacher of Jesus' gospel.
    Paul was the only preacher of the Gospel and justification by faith. Paul received his Gospel directly from Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:11, 12.

    It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    I am sorry but I do believe he is not a good teacher of Jesus' gospel.
    Honest question, meshak,
    have you ever read ALL of Paul's epistles?
    Have you ever read SOME of Paul's epistles.
    Have you ever read ANY of Paul's epistles?

    Remember the Risen Lord Himself told Paul what Paul was to do.

    Have you ever considered why Paul gave a total turn around against what he was doing and started preaching WHO Jesus was and WHAT Jesus did?

    Have you ever considered 'had the princes of this world known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory'?

    2 Corinthians 2
    Last edited by lifeisgood; December 8th, 2017 at 08:38 AM.
    No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
    No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:1318)
    No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:2324)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Paul was the only preacher of the Gospel and justification by faith. Paul received his Gospel directly from Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:11, 12.

    It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
    I have a lot things to say about it but I will not, lest to be banned.
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    I have a lot things to say about it but I will not, lest to be banned.
    You are better off to speak the truth and be banned than not to.

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