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Thread: Righteousness and Justification by Faith

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Excellent point and fully on display in this thread. If you quote James then according to the OP you must be a "Judaizer", and according to the Reformist-Calvinist you must be an Arminian, Synergist, blah, blah, blah. Nothing but excuses from people not taking all of the writings into account, and rather choosing one author over another, pitting scripture against scripture so as to nullify what they do not wish to accept or believe. However, where do we find any warning about those who twist and subvert the writings of James to their own destruction? (lol), nowhere, but we do read of Peter saying the same concerning the writings of Paul, and that is enough for me to guard myself, and to take that warning seriously, and to be very careful when it comes to the (awesomely supernal) things that Paul is teaching.
    As Paul might have said, what I say next, I speak as a fool.

    Paul was a university professor. Paul was a lawyer. Paul was a textbook writer. I have sat under many lecturers such as Paul, where they take a simple concept, explain it in depth, and I am left saying "Huh?"

    I know the problem is with not so bright me. But there are other not so bright me's 2000 years later who read Paul and still, today, go "Huh?"

    So, in my defence, which I call "Paul for dummies" I say, do not just take Paul and ignore Jesus and His brother James. Take them all as speaking the same thing. In fact do not even take Paul and ignore Paul because Paul can seem to be contradicting Paul. Yet I know there is a consistency to Paul. We, the Dummies, just have to find it.

    Again, because I know I am a Dummy, when someone quotes Paul, I will not reply till I have read the book they are quoting from, from first to last verse.

    Why I say this is because verses quoted out of context may sound completely against the message of the book.
    e.g. Rom 7:12
    Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. vs...
    Rom 3:27

    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    Rom 3:28
    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    In the same book Paul seems both for the law and against the law. But I know reading the whole book will tell us which.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post

    In the same book Paul seems both for the law and against the law.
    That's the reason why I say his word sends mixed messages and confusion.

    And his over all messages is not Jesus' teachings. In fact, he seems to deny to be faithful to Jesus' teachings.
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    As Paul might have said, what I say next, I speak as a fool.

    Paul was a university professor. Paul was a lawyer. Paul was a textbook writer. I have sat under many lecturers such as Paul, where they take a simple concept, explain it in depth, and I am left saying "Huh?"

    I know the problem is with not so bright me. But there are other not so bright me's 2000 years later who read Paul and still, today, go "Huh?"

    So, in my defence, which I call "Paul for dummies" I say, do not just take Paul and ignore Jesus and His brother James. Take them all as speaking the same thing. In fact do not even take Paul and ignore Paul because Paul can seem to be contradicting Paul. Yet I know there is a consistency to Paul. We, the Dummies, just have to find it.

    Again, because I know I am a Dummy, when someone quotes Paul, I will not reply till I have read the book they are quoting from, from first to last verse.

    Why I say this is because verses quoted out of context may sound completely against the message of the book.
    e.g. Rom 7:12
    Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. vs...
    Rom 3:27

    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    Rom 3:28
    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    In the same book Paul seems both for the law and against the law. But I know reading the whole book will tell us which.
    "deeds of the law" = "works of the law" = "physical works - flesh-minded interpretation of the law"

    God does not seem to be interested in or much happy with what we can do with our hands, feet, or that little member the tongue which is lit by the fire of Gehenna, nay, but rather it appears He wants us to put those things to sleep, or to death, to "mortify the deeds of the body" and our "members which are upon the earth". I suspect the reason is because those things tend make us become proud and self-righteous while in fact deceive us into thinking we are doing God a service and doing the will of God. It seems to me from what I read that God wants works that are done from the inside, from the heart, things like, well, you know, love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    As Paul might have said, what I say next, I speak as a fool.

    Paul was a university professor. Paul was a lawyer. Paul was a textbook writer. I have sat under many lecturers such as Paul, where they take a simple concept, explain it in depth, and I am left saying "Huh?"

    I know the problem is with not so bright me. But there are other not so bright me's 2000 years later who read Paul and still, today, go "Huh?"

    So, in my defence, which I call "Paul for dummies" I say, do not just take Paul and ignore Jesus and His brother James. Take them all as speaking the same thing. In fact do not even take Paul and ignore Paul because Paul can seem to be contradicting Paul. Yet I know there is a consistency to Paul. We, the Dummies, just have to find it.

    Again, because I know I am a Dummy, when someone quotes Paul, I will not reply till I have read the book they are quoting from, from first to last verse.

    Why I say this is because verses quoted out of context may sound completely against the message of the book.
    e.g. Rom 7:12
    Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. vs...
    Rom 3:27

    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    Rom 3:28
    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    In the same book Paul seems both for the law and against the law. But I know reading the whole book will tell us which.
    If we read a bit more of Romans 3, we see that the Jews are justified by faith and the gentiles through faith, because the Jews have the laws, but that is not enough, they must have faith also, so they are justified by faith, but we are justified through faith because we don't know the laws as they do, so it's through faith in Christ and God that we are justified, but then once we have faith and once we are born of God, then through Christ we will have the laws written in our hearts and in our minds by the Holy Spirit teaching and guiding us in the truth daily. And as Paul said, we then establish the laws. Because through love and faith, we obey the spirit in the heart. And if we truly love God with our all and our neighbour as ourselves then we won't break the laws.

    Romans 3

    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Romans 13

    Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Paul doesn't go against the laws of God, he says that we establish the laws of God through love and faith, because once we have true faith and love God with our all, we will obey him and love others as ourselves and we won't do anything to hurt them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Paul doesn't go against the laws of God, he says that we establish the laws of God through love and faith, because once we have true faith and love God with our all, we will obey him and love others as ourselves and we won't do anything to hurt them.
    Paul seems a bit of a Pharisee when it comes to his own personal law keeping.
    Where was Paul finally taken prisoner before being sent to Rome? He was captured in the temple, in Jerusalem, participating with and paying for sacrificial offerings for Jews who were taking religious vows (possibly Nazarite vows).

    Act 21:26
    Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
    Act 21:27
    And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

    One does not get any more OC law keeping than performing purification rituals in the temple in Jerusalem.

    So, for someone supposedly against works, Paul did a lot of works.
    And for someone supposedly against law, Paul was a poster child for OC law keeping himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post


    So, for someone supposedly against works, Paul did a lot of works.
    And for someone supposedly against law, Paul was a poster child for OC law keeping himself.
    Yes, that causes confusion.
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    Yes, that causes confusion.
    You are not alone

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    You are not alone
    I know. That's why so many arguments around Paul's word.
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    You are not alone
    God is not God of confusion.

    Leaders claim or teaching should not be cause of confusion.
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Paul seems a bit of a Pharisee when it comes to his own personal law keeping.
    Where was Paul finally taken prisoner before being sent to Rome? He was captured in the temple, in Jerusalem, participating with and paying for sacrificial offerings for Jews who were taking religious vows (possibly Nazarite vows).

    Act 21:26
    Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
    Act 21:27
    And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

    One does not get any more OC law keeping than performing purification rituals in the temple in Jerusalem.

    So, for someone supposedly against works, Paul did a lot of works.
    And for someone supposedly against law, Paul was a poster child for OC law keeping himself.
    Yes Paul didn't just push God's laws aside and not do any works, he did both, through faith and love. He had faith and loved God from his heart.

    You can hear the spirit in Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Here's a great big cast iron cooking pot calling a little tiny cast iron cup holder BLACK.
    Oh look, daqq likes that. I guess you think glorydazed agrees with your false doctrines?

    God says not to play favoritism, if you do you are Hell bound. You are trying to encourage glorydazed for being rude to me. You must know you are not right in the heart.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Oh look, daqq likes that. I guess you think glorydazed agrees with your false doctrines?

    God says not to play favoritism, if you do you are Hell bound. You are trying to encourage glorydazed for being rude to me. You must know you are not right in the heart.
    I know full well that GD and I have very sharp disagreements in doctrine but that does not keep me from thanking anyone's post when they speak truth. Moreover, by thanking her post, (because I agreed with what she said and know it is true), my point came across loud and clear to you without my having to say a word to you, (and I like that fact, lol). But now that you have brought it up, I feel compelled to let you know that the imagery which you present is in my estimation even worse than what GD said to you: for in my mind, when you speak, (the way you write), I picture something more like Kathy Bates on a bad day holding a cast iron skillet up at James Caan, (MISERY), while commanding him to "OBEY!" People do not "OBEY!" because they are commanded to do so, but rather, they "submit themselves" because they love the One they wish to submit themselves unto. I suppose it is just all in your delivery and the way you speak, but it seems from your speech that you imagine God to be more like Pharaoh than a loving Father, (and perhaps that is because of all the terrible translations of the so-called "Old Testament"). But what happened with the Pharaoh situation? It was bondage and the Father delivered His people from it. I do not say these things to hurt you but to inform you of what I see as the truth so as to maybe help you if possible. I cannot speak for others but I have now told you what I see, as kindly as I know how to do in such a situation, and really mean it for your good: doubtful that anyone is going to take you seriously so long as you keep telling people they must "OBEY!", (no matter what or WHO you are talking about when you say that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    I know full well that GD and I have very sharp disagreements in doctrine but that does not keep me from thanking anyone's post when they speak truth. Moreover, by thanking her post, (because I agreed with what she said and know it is true), my point came across loud and clear to you without my having to say a word to you, (and I like that fact, lol). But now that you have brought it up, I feel compelled to let you know that the imagery which you present is in my estimation even worse than what GD said to you: for in my mind, when you speak, (the way you write), I picture something more like Kathy Bates on a bad day holding a cast iron skillet up at James Caan, (MISERY), while commanding him to "OBEY!" People do not "OBEY!" because they are commanded to do so, but rather, they "submit themselves" because they love the One they wish to submit themselves unto. I suppose it is just all in your delivery and the way you speak, but it seems from your speech that you imagine God to be more like Pharaoh than a loving Father, (and perhaps that is because of all the terrible translations of the so-called "Old Testament"). But what happened with the Pharaoh situation? It was bondage and the Father delivered His people from it. I do not say these things to hurt you but to inform you of what I see as the truth so as to maybe help you if possible. I cannot speak for others but I have now told you what I see, as kindly as I know how to do in such a situation, and really mean it for your good: doubtful that anyone is going to take you seriously so long as you keep telling people they must "OBEY!", (no matter what or WHO you are talking about when you say that).
    They go against me for saying we have to obey to get saved and to stay saved.

    I take a lot of careful time and love posting what I post, and mostly get insults from blind people with hard hearts.

    You are not right in the heart either, since you joined in with an enemy of yours to encourage her to continue to verbally abuse me.

    You misjudge me and are an unfair person.

    You also put down the Holy Bible, which proves further that your heart is not right.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Yes Paul didn't just push God's laws aside and not do any works, he did both, through faith and love. He had faith and loved God from his heart.

    You can hear the spirit in Paul.
    Paul must be doing something right if he gets to write half of the NT.

    It is often our biases which blind us to what Paul is saying.

    For instance if a teenage daughter asks her father if she can go out at night.
    The Father answers, "Yes, but I want you in bed by 11pm".
    So she is, in her boyfriend's bed by 11pm.

    She is hearing her father, and interpreting him the way SHE wants to hear him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    They go against me for saying we have to obey to get saved and to stay saved.

    I take a lot of careful time and love posting what I post, and mostly get insults from blind people with hard hearts.

    You are not right in the heart either, since you joined in with an enemy of yours to encourage her to continue to verbally abuse me.

    You misjudge me and are an unfair person.

    You also put down the Holy Bible, which proves further that your heart is not right.
    The idiom, "the pot (or cauldron) calling the kettle black", is not an evil or nasty thing to say to someone. You apparently do not even understand the phrase: which reveals that even your judgment of my heart and the hearts of other people is error. Moreover, when you judge the hearts of others, you are utterly disobeying the commandment of both the Master and Paul who teaches the same, (see Rom 2:1-8).

    Matthew 7:1-12 HNV
    1 "Don't judge, so that you won't be judged.
    2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.
    3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?
    4 Or how will you tell your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye;' and behold, the beam is in your own eye?
    5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
    6 "Don't give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
    7 "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you.
    8 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.
    9 Or who is there among you, who, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
    10 Or if he asks for a fish, who will give him a serpent?
    11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
    12 Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the Torah and the Prophets.


    Everyone can see how I answered you as politely as I could in my previous post, even though you had already insinuated that I am hell-bound and stated that I am not right in the heart, (which you have now repeated again in your judgment even after I tried to explain as politely as I know how to do).

    Now therefore, according to the statement from the Master which I have quoted herein, you are judged by your own words:

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    They go against me for saying we have to obey to get saved and to stay saved.
    By your own words you have not obeyed the Testimony of Messiah in Matthew 7:1-2.
    You may have been "saved" but by your own testimony you have not "stayed saved" . . .

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