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Thread: Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Ive already responded in detail. Here are a couple verses for you to ponder, the failure is yours as well as the error.

    1 Timothy 1:4
    Nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

    Titus 3:9
    But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
    Actually, this is a discussion of a false doctrine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Reminder of my answer that satisfies your "claim" of error again:

    Is there an error in the counting of the generations in Matthew chapter 1?
    Your explanation deals with one missing name, Jehoiakim, and a count error of 41 rather then 42.

    The person who prepared this explanation did not see the error that I pointed out: Matthew misplaced four generations with one and miscounted 14 instead of 17.

    I mentioned the Jehoiakim error that the solution you offered tried to explain, but what you offered did not deal in any way with the error that I pointed out.

    Please read my post on this. What you offered does not attempt to address it.

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    By the way, Angel4truth, some of the others who claim to be Christians should be pointing out how your copy-and-paste solution deals with a different problem than I presented.

    Lon thanked you for once again posting something that did not address the error I raised! It think that is a sad commentary and a negative reflection on him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom.

    Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    It is the Christian Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TestedandTried View Post
    It is the Christian Bible.
    Shalom.

    I am a Jew, Jewish. But I used to be a Christian. I considered the Bible to be Scripture.

    I accept the TaNaK and Matthew through Revelation. I still have questions about what Scripture is, even accepting all of these. So your definition or accepting this is not wrong. Meaning, I understand that.

    The TaNaK is the Torah (the Law, Torah means Instruction Teaching Direction and Law) the Nevi'im (the Prophets) and the Ketuvim (the Writings).

    I have questions about if the Torah or the TaNaK is the Old Covenant or Scripture. Is the Torah the Old Covenant? Is the Torah Scripture? This is different from the Christian or the Christian Bible's Old Covenant or Old Testament.

    What is the reading of the Old Covenant?

    When was the TaNaK accepted as and called Scripture? This is not the same as discussing what is the Biblical or Christian Canon.

    Also, what is the Jewish Bible and what is the Hebrew Bible?

    The Law and the Prophets or the Law the Prophets and the Writings. How do we think about these?

    How do we think about the Torah, the Law?

    What is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant different from Scripture as Scripture is not the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The covenants are found in Scripture, but they are not the Scriptures themselves. But then what is the reading of the Old Covenant?

    The New Covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts. It came in Christ Jesus, Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ, Jesus the Messiah, Jesus Messiah. But this is different from the subject of this thread though related for clarification and because it may edify you based on your answer.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Jacob,
    My pastor during his sermons sometimes apologizes to Jews for our calling the Jewish scriptures the “Old Testament” and the way Christians have appropriated them as our own.

    As far as I can tell, the church has always considered the Jewish scriptures to be part of the sacred scriptures, although there were and are differences in the specific documents considered canonical (appropriate for reading in church).

    For example, the Festal Letter Of 367 by Bishop Athanasius included Maccabees (excluded by some Christians) and excluded Esther (included by nearly all Christians). The Book Of Enoch is an example of a document that has been sometimes, rarely, accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Jacob,
    My pastor during his sermons sometimes apologizes to Jews for our calling the Jewish scriptures the “Old Testament” and the way Christians have appropriated them as our own.

    As far as I can tell, the church has always considered the Jewish scriptures to be part of the sacred scriptures, although there were and are differences in the specific documents considered canonical (appropriate for reading in church).

    For example, the Festal Letter Of 367 by Bishop Athanasius included Maccabees (excluded by some Christians) and excluded Esther (included by nearly all Christians). The Book Of Enoch is an example of a document that has been sometimes, rarely, accepted.
    Interesting. It sounds like people are learning.
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    I apologize for not reading your personal info before posting...so you consider yourself Jewish now, once having been a Christian.
    My answer remains unchanged, but we can say that the Scriptures are inspired. The books of the prophets themselves testify to this, words to the effect: write this down as commanded by the Lord, are in those texts. The N.T. reinforces this in very clear language so that we know this is how those books were accepted. See II Peter 1:19-21:
    We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
    I will address some of your other queries/points by separate post a little later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Reminder of my answer that satisfies your "claim" of error again:
    Yep, and here :Rev 22:18
      For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. 

    Rev 22:19

      And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book. 

    Some people are interested in their thoughts, not scriptures :Z

    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Cobra, in an attempt to get past your attempts at pointing out error, which are erroneous, let us ask, what would be the repercussions from an errant text vs an inerrant text?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Interesting. It sounds like people are learning.
    There is no need for such drivel as apologizing for being a Christian and embracing the whole Bible. Jews are well aware of a Christian's heritage. As a believer, I cannot apologize for appropriating scripture, they belong to the gentile as well. The reason we call them 'Old Testament' is because it is under the Law. Jesus fulfilled the law and introduced grace Ephesians 2:8,9

    This is the Christian position. Anything else, isn't Christian, frankly, so realize you have a few nonChristians talking to you in thread and consider the source. Oh, these will argue, I'm sure, that they are Christians, but anyone 'apologizing' cannot be a Christian. He/she needs to read the bible a few more times. They are clueless and apologizing for the Lord Jesus Christ. Both the Tanakh and N.T belong to Jesus. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Lon For Your Post:

    Angel4Truth (December 7th, 2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    There is no need for such drivel as apologizing for being a Christian and embracing the whole Bible. Jews are well aware of a Christian's heritage. As a believer, I cannot apologize for appropriating scripture, they belong to the gentile as well. The reason we call them 'Old Testament' is because it is under the Law. Jesus fulfilled the law and introduced grace Ephesians 2:8,9

    This is the Christian position. Anything else, isn't Christian, frankly, so realize you have a few nonChristians talking to you in thread and consider the source. Oh, these will argue, I'm sure, that they are Christians, but anyone 'apologizing' cannot be a Christian. He/she needs to read the bible a few more times. They are clueless and apologizing for the Lord Jesus Christ. Both the Tanakh and N.T belong to Jesus. -Lon
    Excellent.

    Do you say the Old Testament is the Torah, the TaNaK, or the 39 books from Genesis to Malachi?

    I accept the TaNaK and Matthew through Revelation as a Jew.
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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  17. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom.

    I am a Jew, Jewish. But I used to be a Christian. I considered the Bible to be Scripture.

    I accept the TaNaK and Matthew through Revelation. I still have questions about what Scripture is, even accepting all of these. So your definition or accepting this is not wrong. Meaning, I understand that.

    The TaNaK is the Torah (the Law, Torah means Instruction Teaching Direction and Law) the Nevi'im (the Prophets) and the Ketuvim (the Writings).

    I have questions about if the Torah or the TaNaK is the Old Covenant or Scripture. Is the Torah the Old Covenant? Is the Torah Scripture? This is different from the Christian or the Christian Bible's Old Covenant or Old Testament.

    What is the reading of the Old Covenant?

    When was the TaNaK accepted as and called Scripture? This is not the same as discussing what is the Biblical or Christian Canon.

    Also, what is the Jewish Bible and what is the Hebrew Bible?

    The Law and the Prophets or the Law the Prophets and the Writings. How do we think about these?

    How do we think about the Torah, the Law?

    What is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant different from Scripture as Scripture is not the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The covenants are found in Scripture, but they are not the Scriptures themselves. But then what is the reading of the Old Covenant?

    The New Covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts. It came in Christ Jesus, Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ, Jesus the Messiah, Jesus Messiah. But this is different from the subject of this thread though related for clarification and because it may edify you based on your answer.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    Hello Again, I'm going further.
    Since you accept most of the Christian Bible...though not all...you must be a Messianic Jew...am I correct?

    This is from your post...
    What is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant different from Scripture as Scripture is not the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The covenants are found in Scripture, but they are not the Scriptures themselves. But then what is the reading of the Old Covenant?

    I beg to differ with you on that first sentence. Scripture is both the Old and New Covenant.
    Hebrew 8:6-8:
    But now, Jesus has obtained a ministry that is as much superior as the covenant that he mediates is better, because it has been established on the basis of better promises. 7 Indeed, if that first covenant were without fault, there would have been no reason to look for a second. 8 But because God found fault with the people...
    Hebrew 8:13:
    When God said “new,” he made the first covenant obsolete, and something that is obsolete and growing old is going to disappear. --EHV
    So the Old Covenant, written code the Jews lived under before Christ, God found fault with. Christ ushered in a New Covenant...this is prophesied in the Old Testament/Covenant btw
    Jeremiah 31:29-30:
    “In those days people will no longer say,
    ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
    30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge. --NIV

    So this is just a morsel of prophecy of the changes Messiah would bring.

    Here we see that the Covenants are part and parcel of the Scriptures below...and many other places...
    Luke 24:26-27:
    Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
    Luke 24:44-45: --NIV
    44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
    45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. --NIV

    You see imbedded in these verses just what Scripture had consisted of.

    I'll do a final analysis a bit later...once again.
    Build faith in God...the True Israel/True Jew post Christ is a true believer. This is the position I come from. All Israel is not Israel...they are no longer a nationality. A jew is circumcised in the heart and lives for Christ as the Spirit moves him and enables him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TestedandTried View Post
    Hello Again, I'm going further.
    Since you accept most of the Christian Bible...though not all...you must be a Messianic Jew...am I correct?

    This is from your post...
    What is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant different from Scripture as Scripture is not the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The covenants are found in Scripture, but they are not the Scriptures themselves. But then what is the reading of the Old Covenant?

    I beg to differ with you on that first sentence. Scripture is both the Old and New Covenant.
    Hebrew 8:6-8:
    But now, Jesus has obtained a ministry that is as much superior as the covenant that he mediates is better, because it has been established on the basis of better promises. 7 Indeed, if that first covenant were without fault, there would have been no reason to look for a second. 8 But because God found fault with the people...
    Hebrew 8:13:
    When God said “new,” he made the first covenant obsolete, and something that is obsolete and growing old is going to disappear. --EHV
    So the Old Covenant, written code the Jews lived under before Christ, God found fault with. Christ ushered in a New Covenant...this is prophesied in the Old Testament/Covenant btw
    Jeremiah 31:29-30:
    “In those days people will no longer say,
    ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
    30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge. --NIV

    So this is just a morsel of prophecy of the changes Messiah would bring.

    Here we see that the Covenants are part and parcel of the Scriptures below...and many other places...
    Luke 24:26-27:
    Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
    Luke 24:44-45: --NIV
    44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
    45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. --NIV

    You see imbedded in these verses just what Scripture had consisted of.

    I'll do a final analysis a bit later...once again.
    Build faith in God...the True Israel/True Jew post Christ is a true believer. This is the position I come from. All Israel is not Israel...they are no longer a nationality. A jew is circumcised in the heart and lives for Christ as the Spirit moves him and enables him.
    I disagree with you.

    I am not a Messianic Jew. I do know what a Messianic Jew is. I do not agree with all of Messianic doctrine.

    I am a Jew. I accept the TaNaK and Matthew through Revelation. I accept Yeshua as the Messiah.
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

  19. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    I disagree with you.

    I am not a Messianic Jew. I do know what a Messianic Jew is. I do not agree with all of Messianic doctrine.

    I am a Jew. I accept the TaNaK and Matthew through Revelation. I accept Yeshua as the Messiah.
    Where do our major disagreements lie regarding the Covenants as Scripture (I provided proofs quoting Scripture which you say you accept.)?

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