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Thread: Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    Scripture is the accumulated writings of holy men. Holy men decide what goes in or out. Because they rely on the scripture for their authority, they claim God wrote what they wrote. The common bible is comprised of 66 books finalized by a council of the RCC which considered itself inerrant.
    Which council?

    The RCC canon has more than 66 books.

    The earliest council with which I am familiar that set the current RCC canon was the Council of Carthage at the end of the fourth century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    Scripture is the accumulated writings of holy men. Holy men decide what goes in or out. Because they rely on the scripture for their authority, they claim God wrote what they wrote. The common bible is comprised of 66 books finalized by a council of the RCC which considered itself inerrant.
    Caino,

    Thank you for your well thought out reply. Are you Catholic? Were these holy men who decide what goes in or out? Different from those who wrote what we know to be God's Word, Scripture, Torah, the TaNaK, Matthew through Revelation. Were the 66 books decided on following a New Covenant or New Testament Canon, an Old Covenant or Old Testament Canon, or were these both decided upon at the same time. Were the designations Old Covenant or Old Testament and New Covenant or New Testament decided upon before or after a Biblical Canon or their respective Canons? When were the books accepted and when did they become Canon? I am not Catholic and never will be.

    Shalom.

    Jacob

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Please quote the OT scripture.
    Jeremiah 2:13 “My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

    Jeremiah 17:13Lord, you are the hope of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

    Isaiah 58:11
    "And the LORD will continually guide you, And satisfy your desire in scorched places, And give strength to your bones; And you will be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Jeremiah 2:13 “My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

    Jeremiah 17:13Lord, you are the hope of Israel; all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.

    Isaiah 58:11
    "And the LORD will continually guide you, And satisfy your desire in scorched places, And give strength to your bones; And you will be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.
    Are you saying that one or more of these verses says "Out of the believer's heart (literally, belly) shall flow rivers of living water.”

    I don’t find that credible.

    If that is your position, we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Caino,

    Thank you for your well thought out reply. Are you Catholic? Were these holy men who decide what goes in or out? Different from those who wrote what we know to be God's Word, Scripture, Torah, the TaNaK, Matthew through Revelation. Were the 66 books decided on following a New Covenant or New Testament Canon, an Old Covenant or Old Testament Canon, or were these both decided upon at the same time. Were the designations Old Covenant or Old Testament and New Covenant or New Testament decided upon before or after a Biblical Canon or their respective Canons? When were the books accepted and when did they become Canon? I am not Catholic and never will be.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    I am interested in his answers too.

    I will note that it is unlikely that a Roman Catholic would declare that the Bible has 66 books, as their Bibles have more books than that (as does the 1611 KJV.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Are you saying that one or more of these verses says "Out of the believer's heart (literally, belly) shall flow rivers of living water.”

    I don’t find that credible.

    If that is your position, we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.
    God is the Living Water and the Jews who sinned by forsaking God are people who are broken and cannot hold the Living Water. They should have believed God and they would have held His Water within them.

    I was just showing you scripture about the Living Water.

    What you are doing is what? You are speaking about books that are missing? Okay, now what? So what? What can one do about it? Would you accept other books that have not been protected as the Holy Bible has been? Does having more books help you to be saved? The Bible has everything we need to guide us to eternal life.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Hi, No, I'm not Catholic, I'm a disciple of Jesus, of his original, pre-cross gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

    By the first council of Nicea in 325 the cannon lists were developing. In 321 Constantine had 50 Bibles put together using a list. Throughout the coming years and councils various list were in circulation. There is no indication in the scant histories of the development of the canon list about "covenants".

    Gods Word is the Living Truth, the Bible books are the Written Word, influenced by Men, holy men, some more holy than others. The OT was itself still in development in the first century.

    "Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil doing of his ancestors."UB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    Hi, No, I'm not Catholic, I'm a disciple of Jesus, of his original, pre-cross gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

    By the first council of Nicea in 325 the cannon lists were developing. In 321 Constantine had 50 Bibles put together using a list. Throughout the coming years and councils various list were in circulation. There is no indication in the scant histories of the development of the canon list about "covenants".

    Gods Word is the Living Truth, the Bible books are the Written Word, influenced by Men, holy men, some more holy than others. The OT was itself still in development in the first century.
    The best to you. Thank you for sharing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    God is the Living Water and the Jews who sinned by forsaking God are people who are broken and cannot hold the Living Water. They should have believed God and they would have held His Water within them.

    I was just showing you scripture about the Living Water.

    What you are doing is what? You are speaking about books that are missing? Okay, now what? So what? What can one do about it? Would you accept other books that have not been protected as the Holy Bible has been? Does having more books help you to be saved? The Bible has everything we need to guide us to eternal life.
    I have noticed that people sometimes tend to pad the resume of the Bible, imagining it to be infallible and defining every word in it to be the Word of God. The Bible never made those claims for itself.

    We are to love and follow the Lord.

    Do you still maintain that Jesus quoted the OT in John 7?

    I will find a quote that might help and post it.

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    Here is the quote:

    “In short, the Scriptures, according to the early Fathers, are indeed inspired, but that is not the reason they are authoritative. They are authoritative, and hence canonical, because they are the extant literary deposit of the direct and indirect apostolic witness on which the later witness of the Church depends.”

    Excerpt From
    The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance
    Bruce M Metzger
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the...06791592?mt=11
    This material may be protected by copyright.

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    A written work is profitable for spiritual instruction and guidance, provided it clearly conveys divine principles and ideals. If a written work achieves to inspire people to seek God, repent of their sins/chaos and do good/adopt patterns of thought and behavior that are conducive for life and communion with God, then it is a sacred writing or holy book. God reveals laws, principles, ideals and conveys those laws, principles and ideals, in a way that is intelligible to the human mind. The angels reveal the divine order or kingdom, directly to the human being via visions, dreams and sometimes by materializing in the physical realm, delivering a message face to face.

    Those who have actually experienced the presence of YHWH and His angels, his hosts/armies: צבאות (seba'ot), having a genuine relationship with Him, aren't moved or affected by a written work containing errors or extraordinary stories, like that of Jonah and the giant fish. It's not about the narrative being historical, but rather about the divine principles and ideals being conveyed. The divine will being expressed through the story. Once you know YHWH, you know YHWH. A person, a living being, not a book or collection of writings. Some people just have a relationship with a book and the god of their own creation. A figment of their imagination. They rely heavily on supposed "infallible books", in order to compensate for their lack of faith and spirituality.

    They need that warm and fuzzy infallible teddy bear book, or they'll fall apart spiritually and run to the nigh club. They'll become an atheist. A worldly, vulgar caveman, without their "infallible book". "The Book" provides comfort and a sense of control(..Something tangible they can hold in their hand and say "Yeah I got it", "Here it is", "I have it all figured out". " I have God all figured out, so you better agree with me or you're a heretic"...). They place God in a box, with a convenient little label that they can easily identify,define, and defend. That's their god. The god of their, doctrinal school of thought or sect. God for them really amounts to a set of doctrines they can defend and hit others over the head with, not a relationship with an actual person. These people are faithless. No faith. No courage. Their devotion to God is based on what God can do for them. Ingrates.

    "GIVE ME ETERNAL LIFE, OR I WON'T SERVE OR WORSHIP YOU!"

    (God doesn't owe us this life, much less an afterlife.)

    Life will only hand you a sack full of questions. It's up to God, through His spirit to enlighten you, draw you to repentance and a genuine relationship with Him. Communion with the Holy Spirit. If you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit and have actually experienced that reality and furthermore, have witnessed the power of God in Jesus Name, healing the sick, casting out demons..etc..Then warm and fuzzy infallible teddy bear books aren't required (Obsolete). No one in this fallen world is infallible, except God. Even His angels aren't infallible. We are flawed, broken beings, hence our interpretation and understanding of anything that is supposedly infallible, will it self be fallible. Subject to error.

    So, those who assert that the bible is the "inerrant, infallible word of God" are misguided. The only perfect word of God is Messiah. The Word is a person, not paper and ink. Jesus Christ, Yeshua Ha'Moshiach. That's the only infallible one, besides of course the Heavenly Father, which no one knows but The Son and those The Son, chooses to reveal Him to.
    Last edited by RealityJerk; November 24th, 2017 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Typos

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealityJerk View Post
    A written work is profitable for spiritual instruction and guidance, provided it clearly conveys divine principles and ideals. If a written work achieves to inspire people to seek God, repent of their sins/chaos and do good/adopt patterns of thought and behavior that are conducive for life and communion with God, then it is a sacred writing or holy book. God reveals laws, principles, ideals and conveys those laws, principles and ideals, in a way that is intelligible to the human mind. The angels reveal the divine order or kingdom, directly to the human being via visions, dreams and sometimes by materializing in the physical realm, delivering a message face to face.

    Those who have actually experienced the presence of YHWH and His angels, his hosts/armies: צבאות (seba'ot), having a genuine relationship with Him, aren't moved or affected by a written work containing errors or extraordinary stories, like that of Jonah and the giant fish. It's not about the narrative being historical, but rather about the divine principles and ideals being conveyed. The divine will being expressed through the story. Once you know YHWH, you know YHWH. A person, a living being, not a book or collection of writings. Some people just have a relationship with a book and the god of their own creation. A figment of their imagination. They rely heavily on supposed "infallible books", in order to compensate for their lack of faith and spirituality.

    They need that warm and fuzzy infallible teddy bear book, or they'll fall apart spiritually and run to the nigh club. They'll become an atheist. A worldly, vulgar caveman, without their "infallible book". "The Book" provides comfort and a sense of control(..Something tangible they can hold in their hand and say "Yeah I got it", "Here it is", "I have it all figured out". " I have God all figured out, so you better agree with me or you're a heretic"...). They place God in a box, with a convenient little label that they can easily identify,define and defend. That's their god. The god of their own doctrinal school of thought. God and spirituality is a set of doctrines, not a relationship with an actual person. These people have no faith. They demand certainty, something literal and tangible,, like an infallible book. Their warm and fuzzy infallible teddy bear.

    Life will only hand you a sack full of questions. It's up to God, through His spirit to enlighten you, draw you to repentance and a genuine relationship with Him. Communion with the Holy Spirit. If you've baptized in the Holy Spirit and experienced that reality and furthermore, have witnessed the power of God in Jesus Name, healing the sick, casting out demons..etc..Then warm and fuzzy infallible teddy bear books aren't required. No one in this fallen world is infallible, except God. Even His angels aren't infallible. We are flawed, broken beings, hence our interpretation and understanding of anything that is supposedly infallible, will it self be fallible. Subject to error.

    So, those who assert that the bible is the "inerrant, infallible word of God" are misguided. The only perfect word of God is Messiah. The Word is a person, not paper and ink. Jesus Christ, Yeshua Ha'Moshiach. That's the only infallible one, besides of course the Heavenly Father, which no one knows but The Son and those The Son, chooses to reveal Him to.
    John 14:23
    New American Standard Bible
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

    It is important to know what Scripture is because it is inspired by God. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    16 All Scripture is [a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for [b]training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

    Footnotes:

    2 Timothy 3:16 Lit God-breathed
    2 Timothy 3:16 Lit training which is in

    See also 2 Peter 1:20-21
    2 Peter 1:20-21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    John 14:23
    New American Standard Bible
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

    It is important to know what Scripture is because it is inspired by God. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    16 All Scripture is [a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for [b]training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

    Footnotes:

    2 Timothy 3:16 Lit God-breathed
    2 Timothy 3:16 Lit training which is in

    See also 2 Peter 1:20-21
    2 Peter 1:20-21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
    I agree with everything cited above, nonetheless, the spirit of God highlights what is and isn't His actual word. The bible is like the Garden of Eden, where you have the fruit that leads to eternal life, and the poison fruit that kills. You need divine wisdom, an actual relationship with YHWH or the bible will kill you. You'll just become an impotent, self-deluded, mindless, religious zealot. You need to become a wise money-changer, dividing the counterfeit currency from the genuine. That requires you be a born again, spirit filled believer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealityJerk View Post
    I agree with everything cited above, nonetheless, the spirit of God highlights what is and isn't His actual word. The bible is like the Garden of Eden, where you have the fruit that leads to eternal life, and the poison fruit that kills. You need divine wisdom, an actual relationship with YHWH or the bible will kill you. You'll just become an impotent, self-deluded, mindless, religious zealot. You need to become a wise money-changer, dividing the counterfeit currency from the genuine. That requires you be a born again, spirit filled believer.
    I believe that I am born again and I accept the Bible as the Word of God. I am a Jew, a proselyte and a convert to Judaism and Israel. I accept the Torah, the TaNaK, and Matthew through Revelation. I accept Yeshua as the Messiah. The Torah is the Word of God. The TaNaK is the Word of God. It is important to be able to think about what you read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    John 14:23
    New American Standard Bible
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

    It is important to know what Scripture is because it is inspired by God. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    16 All Scripture is [a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for [b]training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

    Footnotes:

    2 Timothy 3:16 Lit God-breathed
    2 Timothy 3:16 Lit training which is in

    See also 2 Peter 1:20-21
    2 Peter 1:20-21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
    Two things to consider:
    1) The Greek compound word godbreathed does not necessarily mean that God breathed the words. A compound word is not defined by its two roots. Are you aware that the early church fathers considered many non-canonical writings inspired.
    2) if you will take a thorough look at the passage from 2 Peter, you will see that it is not about scripture in its entirety. It refers to the prophecies of scripture spoken by people when moved by the Holy Spirit.

    It is important to know scripture, and it is also important to recognize what it really says and claims about itself.

    The first chapter of Luke provides an excellent example:
    Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed on to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, 3 I too decided, after investigating everything carefully from the very first, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the truth concerning the things about which you have been instructed.

    Luke says he decided to write the gospel. It was not a divine revelation—it was the result of his thorough investigation. That is why there are minor, insignificant differences in the details between Luke and the other gospels. If God had breathed every word into Luke’s pen, there would be no factual differences between the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke).

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