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Thread: Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

  1. #2266
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    You claim the Bible is inerrant, and you will not explain its errors.
    Re-read YOUR sentence again, slowly. I don't know if you realize it, but you state problems that already assume a truth.
    Someone that believes in inerrancy DOESN'T explain errors. There are none.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    That is not a ‘my ball, my rules’ situation.
    Spoiler
    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Nope, but rather the perversion and corruption in your mind has declared that about what I believe; and your ego-god has lied to you because pretty much everything I have said to this point is based in the scripture which your ego-god also tells you is erroneous. I suppose that we could go back and forth like this all day long but it really is not worth the time.

    Yes it is. ▲Daqq ▲ just said the same thing. You do play and think by your own rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    It is clear evidence that you are wrong, know you are wrong, and won’t enter the ball game.
    Ah,

    "Fine! Don't play then! I'll just kick this ball into YOUR goal 10 times and win the game then take my ball and go home!"

    Fine, your rules, you win if only in your own mind.

    Daqq ▲just▲said that too
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Re-read YOUR sentence again, slowly. I don't know if you realize it, but you state problems that already assume a truth.
    Someone that believes in inerrancy DOESN'T explain errors. There are none.
    and yet the errors are clearly there in the text.

    You simply tell people not to look!

    Re-read your position again: AVERT YOUR EYES! PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE ERRORS BEHIND THE CURTAIN! READING THE BIBLE HONESTLY IS ABOVE YOUR PAY GRADE!

    This is why you will not address the errors in the story of Jairus. You canít engage without admitting the truth: the text has errors you canít reconcile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    He has gotten a number of 'invalid' answers others believe valid

    He's your friend. Of course you want to stand up for him. Very noble Nice try
    I am sure Zennís dedication to the truth exceeds his interest in friends.

    On the other hand, those who support the doctrine of inerrancy and will not discuss the obvious errors value their man-made tradition above truth.

  5. #2269
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    and yet the errors are clearly there in the text.

    You simply tell people not to look!
    It doesn't matter what "I" tell people. Not your business EITHER (so neither one is your business, you just INSIST on making both your business)
    What 'you' see clearly in the text? Not 'my' business, not when I can't get you to entertain naught but what you are ironclad over. It is a discussion over before it began, clear back from the first pages of the thread. It just took 152 recesses to figure out you don't play according to any rules but your own. Okay, play. You don't need me when you won't play by other's rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Re-read your position again: AVERT YOUR EYES! PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE ERRORS BEHIND THE CURTAIN! READING THE BIBLE HONESTLY IS ABOVE YOUR PAY GRADE!
    As I said, I'm trying to say it a bit nicer: "In my studied opinion, yours doesn't seem to be as studied." I can say it a couple of other ways: "We, of course, disagree and I can ONLY depend on my own prowess and walk with God. Sorry about that." Please pick one that is nicer to you and thank you. As far as the curtain? Its a bit about the Wizard of Oz's bells and whistles. The problem? If we take it to your accusation, it is 'seeing' something but 'error' is always always, always, going to be assumed, never never, never but an assumption, an accusation. George tried hard to tell you, and nicer than me, that there are rules, already in place. Those 'rules' over interpretation guide us AND keep us ALL honest. If you do not play by them, you are just playing your own game and trying to use your own ball (this one is actually Jacob's).

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    This is why you will not address the errors in the story of Jairus. You can’t engage without admitting the truth: the text has errors you can’t reconcile.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    TRY not to answer for me or anybody else. Answering for me does NOT encourage me to post in this thread.
    Remember me saying 'game over?' There is a reason for that. I have no desire to dialogue when you are trying to make all the rules and nobody gets to say anything.
    George and Daqq said about everything I'd have said to you. Neither are playing by your rules, but neither of them are making these rules up. They are near exact if not exact to the ones I play by. Different rules? Different game, entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    I am sure Zenn’s dedication to the truth exceeds his interest in friends.
    Don't shoot down his friendship so quickly, he's come to your defense a few times and clearly over his care (and perhaps agreement as well) for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    On the other hand, those who support the doctrine of inerrancy and will not discuss the obvious errors value their man-made tradition above truth.
    Er, accusation with NO foundation. You simply believe it because you 'want' to believe it. As I said, it comes from 'your' rule book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Yes it is. You do play and think by your own rules.
    As long as you are making them up as you go, or getting them from a different country with different rules, it'll never play the same here. It is simply a taunt from the French fort in my general direction.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  7. #2270
    Journeyman Zenn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    The things I know from the scripture I know from having first experienced them myself: and only then did the Master show them to me in the Word, (otherwise I would never have understood them).
    So you're claiming direct revelation from Jesus just like Paul did.

    I can live with that.

    But there are things in scripture that you don't know, Not having first experienced them yourself.

    And I'm not sure you realize that you've just admitted that experience comes first and then you could understand what was written, and could not understand what was written beforehand. Are you sure you wish to place experience before scripture?

    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    I am not guessing or speaking from ignorance like most of the people you run into and abuse..
    Your imputed abuse is in your head. I have had discourse with hundreds if not thousands of Christians, and I can truthfully say that your position and ... uh... presentation is rather unique, though considerably incomprehensible. Having been an editor, albeit for a brief period of time, I would not want to touch any manuscript you might submit. My apologies if you've become offended over the quip 'daqq-enese', but unless you really want to remain an audience of one unto yourself, you have got to drop the pretense of being something 'special' because you're the only one who understands your 'special' vocabulary (and to hell with everybody else). It is a poor author who blames his readers for not understanding what he writes.

    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    ... because they cannot yet defend what they believe having not yet walked in the way long enough. Much of what I have said is already scattered throughout this thread in different topics we have discussed, (the finger of the chief Kohen is the Finger of Elohim, Lev 16:14 → Luk 11:20 : Lev 16:17 → Rev 15:8 : Atonement)
    Yes, much of what you have said is scattered.

    And here is a good example. Your reference to Lev 16:14 → Luk 11:20 is quite a stretch. You have compared the finger of a priest applying ritual blood to the finger of God, when Jesus was speaking of the power of the Holy Spirit to actually cast out demons. (You've never have actually met a real demon, have you?) One might better compare the finger of God with the finger of God Exo 31:18 → Luk 11:20.

    That said, your comparison of Lev 16:17 → Rev 15:8 is equally obtuse, in that one speaks of blood sacrifices, and the other speaks of smoke that comes from the glory of God. These are not even addressing the same topic, daqq. So yes, I question your interpretation abilities.

    I have had numerous conversations with Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and others where these esoteric comparisons of interpretation were rather incomprehensible. So... if your identity is intrinsically intertwined with your 'special' revelation, then I understand the anxiety that shows in your posts. But you are quick to take offense, and really shouldn't be involved in these kinds of discussions. While you may think you have "walked in the way" long enough to understand your unique perspective, you have not "walked in the way" long enough to present them with any measure of clarity. If you yourself needed direct revelation (to understand whatever the heck it is you're talking about), then don't be upset if others do too.

    Zenn

    PS: And contrary to your sputtering, I did notice you were trying to defend Matthew by saying he was only quoting Zechariah. But, again, you didn't sufficiently present your case, and Matthew wasn't 'just' quoting Zechariah. He presented a narrative of action and linked this back to a prophetic utterance.
    It is difficult to be reasonable with those who cannot reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenn View Post
    So you're claiming direct revelation from Jesus just like Paul did.

    I can live with that.

    But there are things in scripture that you don't know, Not having first experienced them yourself.

    And I'm not sure you realize that you've just admitted that experience comes first and then you could understand what was written, and could not understand what was written beforehand. Are you sure you wish to place experience before scripture?
    Again, you misread what I said. I did not say that experience comes before the scripture or even that experience comes before understanding the scripture: I only spoke of certain things, things we have discussed here which you have no clue about and do not understand and therefore essentially call God a liar because you do not understand His Word. Moreover I was a believer for nearly thirty years before I even began to understand things the way I do now. I may respond to the rest later, if I can, or maybe not, (it isn't worth arguing about spiritual things with someone who does not even believe at least all of the "canonical" scripture).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    and yet the errors are clearly there in the text.
    No, they aren't in the text...they're in your own mind.

    You simply tell people not to look!
    Not true. He's telling you to look deeper....that you just skim the top and get all flummoxed.


    Re-read your position again: AVERT YOUR EYES! PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE ERRORS BEHIND THE CURTAIN! READING THE BIBLE HONESTLY IS ABOVE YOUR PAY GRADE!
    Clearly, you are falsely accusing Lon of what he has not done.

    False Accuser at work.
    Last edited by glorydaz; January 12th, 2018 at 07:36 PM.

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  12. #2273
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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Again, you misread what I said. I did not say that experience comes before the scripture or even that experience comes before understanding the scripture: I only spoke of certain things, things we have discussed here which you have no clue about and do not understand and therefore essentially call God a liar because you do not understand His Word. Moreover I was a believer for nearly thirty years before I even began to understand things the way I do now. I may respond to the rest later, if I can, or maybe not, (it isn't worth arguing about spiritual things with someone who does not even believe at least all of the "canonical" scripture).

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  14. #2274
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    No, they aren't in the text...they're in your own mind.

    Not true. He's telling you to look deeper....that you just skim the top and get all flummoxed.


    Clearly, you are falsely accusing Lon of what he has not done.

    False Accuser at work.
    Worse? I was reported for nothing I actually did NOR had in mind On top of that? I don't believe that word is a cuss word

    The real spinner is that word didn't enter my mind BUT like Cobra here,

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    This is why you will not address the errors in the story of Jairus. You can’t engage without admitting the truth: the text has errors you can’t reconcile.
    It is a blatant attack on 'me.' Why? Makes you wonder. Neither have the 'gift of discernment' and 'accusation' or 'rumor' are 'good enough.' Sad little charismatics believing whatever little lie they make up in their noggins, all in the name of 'gifted in Christ.' Kind of makes one wish he listened to Ask Mr. Religion way back on page 8 @Ask Mr. Religion You were right! Why O' Why didn't I listen!!??

    I'VE BEEN REPORTED FOR MENTIONING PASSING GAS!!! Which I didn't even do!!! Good news? I'm beginning to empathize a bit with Trump. I CAN'T make this stuff up!
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post


    If he understood the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts he would better understand Paul too, (and "daqq-enese" hopefully also would not be such a problem for him, lol). However it has been made perfectly clear by the one passage I quoted, concerning honoring your father and mother, that he himself, by his own erroneous interpretations, (and lack of knowledge of the scripture), forces contradictions in the scripture and makes the Messiah and Savior out to be a hypocrite in his doctrine. And after having been shown this fact he still does not care because he is his own king and ruler in the machinations of his vain imagination. It is truly about submission to the Word and he apparently does not practice any such thing: what or who therefore does he submit to? Whoever or whatever it is he actually submits to has no pure testimony that has been tried seven times, like what is written, and he therefore can make up whatever he wants as he goes. As Lon also just said, they make up their own rules, but how they think this fact is supposed to sway anyone here is beyond me. "Your Bible has errors: here, let me show you, all you have to do is read it the same way I do!"

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  18. #2276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Worse? I was reported for nothing I actually did NOR had in mind On top of that? I don't believe that word is a cuss word

    The real spinner is that word didn't enter my mind BUT like Cobra here,

    It is a blatant attack on 'me.' Why? Makes you wonder. Neither have the 'gift of discernment' and 'accusation' or 'rumor' are 'good enough.' Sad little charismatics believing whatever little lie they make up in their noggins, all in the name of 'gifted in Christ.' Kind of makes one wish he listened to Ask Mr. Religion way back on page 8 @Ask Mr. Religion You were right! Why O' Why didn't I listen!!??

    I'VE BEEN REPORTED FOR MENTIONING PASSING GAS!!! Which I didn't even do!!! Good news? I'm beginning to empathize a bit with Trump. I CAN'T make this stuff up!
    I just saw that and googled until I finally figured out what he must be talking about. How ignorant can a person be to make it a habit in life to read INTO what another person says. That happened to me back in the day when Nang accused me of calling her "vagina" when I changed her name to Nagina from that Rudyard Kipling story, Rikki Tikki Tavi. She was the female cobra, as I'm sure you know, Lon. But Nang insisted and went on an on for days on end that I had been calling her a "crude" name. The thought had never crossed my mind ....nor would it ever.

    I've found that some people look for personal insults, and if there are none, they will manufacture them. Their ego is just that fragile. Don't give it another thought.

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  20. #2277
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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post


    If he understood the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts he would better understand Paul too, (and "daqq-enese" hopefully also would not be such a problem for him, lol). However it has been made perfectly clear by the one passage I quoted, concerning honoring your father and mother, that he himself, by his own erroneous interpretations, (and lack of knowledge of the scripture), forces contradictions in the scripture and makes the Messiah and Savior out to be a hypocrite in his doctrine. And after having been shown this fact he still does not care because he is his own king and ruler in the machinations of his vain imagination. It is truly about submission to the Word and he apparently does not practice any such thing: what or who therefore does he submit to? Whoever or whatever it is he actually submits to has no pure testimony that has been tried seven times, like what is written, and he therefore can make up whatever he wants as he goes. As Lon also just said, they make up their own rules, but how they think this fact is supposed to sway anyone here is beyond me. "Your Bible has errors: here, let me show you, all you have to do is read it the same way I do!"
    Well said. I couldn't agree more.

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  22. #2278
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    No, didn’t hurt at all.

    It does reveal that you have been extremely testy.
    That's why I STILL wonder about your grades. STILL.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    And it revealed a lot more about you.
    It DOES reveal something about our public school system though

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    I suppose I should clarify, now that it has been long enough since you made your predictions. My grades were excellent in the first 12 years (actually 11, as I skipped a grade). And I graduated with honors from Georgia Institute of Technology and proceeded on into the MBA program at Georgia State University while working full time and serving as an Army Reserve officer.
    Well, Georgia...it was likely your accent then... Not that I'm trying to knock down your school years or really even your grades. Rather, I was trying to tell you in your theology, I don't believe you measure up but AGAIN, I've been trying to be gentle. Don't know if you saw, but I asked my wife 'If I said "You are dense" to someone that IS dense, would they get it?' The point being, how do you say something nice to someone that doesn't get it no matter which way you say it? See, you still play by your own rules.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    So it didn’t hurt at all because it was all wrong.
    No, you play by your own rules. I've known a couple of very blonde blondes who have gotten all A's in school too.




    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    And I appreciated your saying these things because they revealed your insecurity and lack of capability to defend your false doctrine.
    Oh, I knew that was at least the excuse, it is a debate tactic. Imho, it is a worthless debate tactic. It also keeps record of wrongs for that express purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    You couldn’t defend your views so you had to attack me.
    AND ▲this▲ kind of quick and dirty makes it hard to take your grades very seriously. One has to wonder what they teach in Georgia.
    On top of that, you are Charismatic. Now I'm not implying all of them are simpletons. I'm implying that you run off of emotion, it seems to me, more than your brains.
    Oh, wait, that's an 'attack' on you, isn't it. See, when someone is wrong, it is either because they have been taught incorrectly, have something in themselves that affects clear thinking when they were taught correctly. It 'could' even be, because they were given A's when they didn't actually 'earn' them. In smaller towns, its a political process. Someone HAS to get A's or the school loses funding.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    In that, you went hunting but took the wrong dog.
    I can tell you are from huntin' country. It all fits my prejudice. Try to help me break that by saying some things that are gracious, intelligent, well-thought, and a bit accommodating. I've seen Southern hospitality and know what it looks like, even among a few that aren't as bright as you.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Now, what about Jairus?
    See? This dazzle me, does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2003cobra View Post
    Going to discuss the scriptures or further confirm that you cannot defend your position?
    What did you do? Shame your teachers into giving you an A??? Quick question: In your 'educational' experience, did you take debate???

    It'd have taught you a few things you avoid. Let me guess, "A" in this class too???
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Worse? I was reported for nothing I actually did NOR had in mind On top of that? I don't believe that word is a cuss word

    The real spinner is that word didn't enter my mind BUT like Cobra here,

    It is a blatant attack on 'me.' Why? Makes you wonder. Neither have the 'gift of discernment' and 'accusation' or 'rumor' are 'good enough.' Sad little charismatics believing whatever little lie they make up in their noggins, all in the name of 'gifted in Christ.' Kind of makes one wish he listened to Ask Mr. Religion way back on page 8 @Ask Mr. Religion You were right! Why O' Why didn't I listen!!??

    I'VE BEEN REPORTED FOR MENTIONING PASSING GAS!!! Which I didn't even do!!! Good news? I'm beginning to empathize a bit with Trump. I CAN'T make this stuff up!
    I don’t know who reported you. It certainly wasn’t me.

    I am certain avoiding openly and honestly discussing the scriptures is worse than any discussion of natural occurrences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    That's why I STILL wonder about your grades. STILL.


    It DOES reveal something about our public school system though


    Well, Georgia...it was likely your accent then... Not that I'm trying to knock down your school years or really even your grades. Rather, I was trying to tell you in your theology, I don't believe you measure up but AGAIN, I've been trying to be gentle. Don't know if you saw, but I asked my wife 'If I said "You are dense" to someone that IS dense, would they get it?' The point being, how do you say something nice to someone that doesn't get it no matter which way you say it? See, you still play by your own rules.



    No, you play by your own rules. I've known a couple of very blonde blondes who have gotten all A's in school too.




    Oh, I knew that was at least the excuse, it is a debate tactic. Imho, it is a worthless debate tactic. It also keeps record of wrongs for that express purpose.


    AND ▲this▲ kind of quick and dirty makes it hard to take your grades very seriously. One has to wonder what they teach in Georgia.
    On top of that, you are Charismatic. Now I'm not implying all of them are simpletons. I'm implying that you run off of emotion, it seems to me, more than your brains.
    Oh, wait, that's an 'attack' on you, isn't it. See, when someone is wrong, it is either because they have been taught incorrectly, have something in themselves that affects clear thinking when they were taught correctly. It 'could' even be, because they were given A's when they didn't actually 'earn' them. In smaller towns, its a political process. Someone HAS to get A's or the school loses funding.

    I can tell you are from huntin' country. It all fits my prejudice. Try to help me break that by saying some things that are gracious, intelligent, well-thought, and a bit accommodating. I've seen Southern hospitality and know what it looks like, even among a few that aren't as bright as you.


    See? This dazzle me, does not.


    What did you do? Shame your teachers into giving you an A??? Quick question: In your 'educational' experience, did you take debate???

    It'd have taught you a few things you avoid. Let me guess, "A" in this class too???
    You are never going to get any traction pretending I did poorly in school, as I graduated with honors from the fourth ranked engineering school in the United States. Then I had a successful business career. So you certainly failed in these attempts.

    I am not sure why you call me a charismatic. I recognize those gifts haven’t passed away. I don’t have any of the gifts typically classified as charismatic.

    But I suppose these are all distraction techniques, since you cannot take a position on the errors in the text other than “don’t look at them. End of story.” That is a very bad combination of naive, arrogant, and irresponsible. It doesn’t solve problems.

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