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Thread: Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    Yes, they were on dry ground but Paul says twice they were under the cloud and in the sea. That is totally covered with water.
    For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
    Why would Paul make this point?


    In Acts 19, John baptized(verb G907) with baptism(noun G908).
    You have just proven once more that you go by what YOU conclude a thing MEANS by what it is SAYING.

    Any passage will mean what it SAYS.

    While, what it MEANS by what it says, is not always clear.

    And being that Paul referenced an event from Israel's past, the better part of wisdom would suggest one ought to at least go back to that event itself, for more INFORMATION INDUCTION (taking in informatiom) BEFORE allowing oneself a WORKING PREMISE one might ONLY THEN BEGIN TO ATTEMPT TO sort a thing out as "what sort" it actually "is" from.

    Ever increasing Induction or intake of ALL POSSIBLY RELEVANT Information

    Ccontinuing careful Examination of Said Information COMPARING Things That DIFFER and those that are THE SAME.

    Towards EVER a WORKING Premise...

    One THEN proceeds toward a POSSIBLE CONCLUSION on...which is THEN the BASIS of one's ASSERTION.

    Where you and I differ in eeach our end result understanding, Turno, will be where one of us has somehow mis-fire somewhere within in some of that, at some point within its process.

    My study of 1 Cor. 10, based on those principles, is in the Spoiler below...

    Spoiler

    Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt: 13:18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt. 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you. 13:20 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness. 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

    Exodus 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. 14:9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon. 14:10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD. 14:11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? 14:12 Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness. 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night. 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians. 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 14:29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

    What had that actually been about?

    And why does Paul even bring up that CRYSTAL CLEAR OBVIOUSLY DRY "Baptism" to begin with?

    1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

    Paul brought that up because he was talking about what this following baptism, symbolizes...

    1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

    12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

    It symbolizes the fact it has resulted in - this here...

    12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    He was talking about the issue of Who they now were IN Christ.

    How that just as Israel had been baptized or IDENTIFIED WITH MOSES as the People OF GOD, so had the Corinthians been IDENTIFIED WITH PAUL via the SPIRIT's have Identefied them as one WITH Christ.

    In other words, he is applying an IDENTIFICATION Principle ALSO common to God's plan and purpose FOR, WITH and IN the nation Israel, as the Israel of God - he is applying that same IDENTIFICATION Principle to the Body of Christ.

    12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    Baptize or submerge a white cloth into a container of red dye and one happens?

    The red dye becomes one WITH the cloth.

    In turn the white cloth ALSO BECOMES identified WITH said red dye - it BECOMES a RED cloth.

    1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    The moment the person believes Christ died for his sins, the Spirit baptizes him into the Body of Christ - that is to say, the Spirit does that through the faith or "can do - consider it done" power that is the operation of God.

    He performs a spiritual circumcision that results in severing one from their identity WITH and IN Adam and then places them INTO a living union WITH Christ.

    In other words, 1 Cor. 10 is very similar in content and context to this here in Romans 6 - which is the issue of that spiritual baptism or identification WITH Christ that the Spirit has performed in the Believer the moment he has trusted in Christ ALONE.

    This here...

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    The Believer becomes identified WITH Christ as having died WITH and risen WITH Him in HIS Newness of Life.

    1 Cor. 10, then, is basically the issue of the need for them to be conducting themselves as those having been identified WITH Christ.

    In this, the OT's Israel of God had been "our fathers" - for they too had not only entered into an identification of sorts with "that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" - but had also been expected to live up to the standards of said Identification.

    Same principle in both the Israel of God within the nation Israel, and the Body of Christ; different manifestation of said Identity.


    Nevertheless, Rom. 5:6-8 towards you, Turbo.

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    Over 2500 post club turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and where do think WHERE VINE'S got his ?
    From people smarter than me.


    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    When a Greek can not be translated , it is what is called TRANSLITERATION !!
    I totally understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    And MOST GREEK words have more than one MEANING !!
    We're not talking about other Greek words.


    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    You NEED to do more STUDYING !!
    We all do, you included.


    When Paul laid his hands on these men, the BIBLE doesn't tell us it's baptism, Greek or English.
    And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

    When Paul learns they hadn't received the Holy Spirit when they believed, why does he ask them about their baptism?
    Last edited by turbosixx; December 7th, 2017 at 08:22 PM.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Over 2500 post club turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    You have just proven once more that you go by what YOU conclude a thing MEANS by what it is SAYING.

    Any passage will mean what it SAYS.

    While, what it MEANS by what it says, is not always clear.

    And being that Paul referenced an event from Israel's past, the better part of wisdom would suggest one ought to at least go back to that event itself, for more INFORMATION INDUCTION (taking in informatiom) BEFORE allowing oneself a WORKING PREMISE one might ONLY THEN BEGIN TO ATTEMPT TO sort a thing out as "what sort" it actually "is" from.

    Ever increasing Induction or intake of ALL POSSIBLY RELEVANT Information

    Ccontinuing careful Examination of Said Information COMPARING Things That DIFFER and those that are THE SAME.

    Towards EVER a WORKING Premise...

    One THEN proceeds toward a POSSIBLE CONCLUSION on...which is THEN the BASIS of one's ASSERTION.

    Where you and I differ in eeach our end result understanding, Turno, will be where one of us has somehow mis-fire somewhere within in some of that, at some point within its process.

    My study of 1 Cor. 10, based on those principles, is in the Spoiler below...

    Spoiler

    Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt: 13:18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt. 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you. 13:20 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness. 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

    Exodus 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. 14:9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon. 14:10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD. 14:11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? 14:12 Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness. 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night. 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians. 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 14:29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

    What had that actually been about?

    And why does Paul even bring up that CRYSTAL CLEAR OBVIOUSLY DRY "Baptism" to begin with?

    1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

    Paul brought that up because he was talking about what this following baptism, symbolizes...

    1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

    12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

    It symbolizes the fact it has resulted in - this here...

    12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    He was talking about the issue of Who they now were IN Christ.

    How that just as Israel had been baptized or IDENTIFIED WITH MOSES as the People OF GOD, so had the Corinthians been IDENTIFIED WITH PAUL via the SPIRIT's have Identefied them as one WITH Christ.

    In other words, he is applying an IDENTIFICATION Principle ALSO common to God's plan and purpose FOR, WITH and IN the nation Israel, as the Israel of God - he is applying that same IDENTIFICATION Principle to the Body of Christ.

    12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    Baptize or submerge a white cloth into a container of red dye and one happens?

    The red dye becomes one WITH the cloth.

    In turn the white cloth ALSO BECOMES identified WITH said red dye - it BECOMES a RED cloth.

    1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    The moment the person believes Christ died for his sins, the Spirit baptizes him into the Body of Christ - that is to say, the Spirit does that through the faith or "can do - consider it done" power that is the operation of God.

    He performs a spiritual circumcision that results in severing one from their identity WITH and IN Adam and then places them INTO a living union WITH Christ.

    In other words, 1 Cor. 10 is very similar in content and context to this here in Romans 6 - which is the issue of that spiritual baptism or identification WITH Christ that the Spirit has performed in the Believer the moment he has trusted in Christ ALONE.

    This here...

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    The Believer becomes identified WITH Christ as having died WITH and risen WITH Him in HIS Newness of Life.

    1 Cor. 10, then, is basically the issue of the need for them to be conducting themselves as those having been identified WITH Christ.

    In this, the OT's Israel of God had been "our fathers" - for they too had not only entered into an identification of sorts with "that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" - but had also been expected to live up to the standards of said Identification.

    Same principle in both the Israel of God within the nation Israel, and the Body of Christ; different manifestation of said Identity.


    Nevertheless, Rom. 5:6-8 towards you, Turbo.
    I agree that Paul is using the Israelites being baptized into Moses as a example of how they are God's people when they were baptized into Christ.

    You say it's a spiritual baptism then why does he use the example of water and says it twice? In chapter 1 we see they were water baptized some by Paul. Wouldn't they see it as water baptism and not spiritual?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I agree that Paul is using the Israelites being baptized into Moses as a example of how they are God's people when they were baptized into Christ.

    You say it's a spiritual baptism then why does he use the example of water and says it twice? In chapter 1 we see they were water baptized some by Paul. Wouldn't they see it as water baptism and not spiritual?
    Geez can you be insistently obtuse - 1 Cor. 1 and 1 Cor.10 are not the same kind of baptism.

    Only the same principle - of Identification WITH a thing.

    I'd lay all that out again, and this one also, but you well know you are married to your "well, never mind studying a thing out in depth in all of Scripture - what it means to me is..."

    Rom. 5:6-8 towards ya.

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    Over 2500 post club turbosixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Geez can you be insistently obtuse - 1 Cor. 1 and 1 Cor.10 are not the same kind of baptism.

    Only the same principle - of Identification WITH a thing.

    I'd lay all that out again, and this one also, but you well know you are married to your "well, never mind studying a thing out in depth in all of Scripture - what it means to me is..."

    Rom. 5:6-8 towards ya.
    I know they're not the same but Paul could have easily said dry land. If Paul is not referring to water baptism then why does Paul mention the cloud and sea which are obviously water and not the dry land that you want to force in there?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    "well, never mind studying a thing out in depth in all of Scripture - what it means to me is..."
    I have studied this out. I can easily see unsupported leaps you're making in your logic.

    You have to figure out why what is plainly said isn't correct. Like how the church Paul persecuted is not the same one that is the body. I can take it at face value because I know they're the same one.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post

    The moment the person believes Christ died for his sins, the Spirit baptizes him into the Body of Christ - that is to say, the Spirit does that through the faith or "can do - consider it done" power that is the operation of God.
    That is what the world would have us believe today but I don't see any proof of this in scripture.

    Acts 19:2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    Why didn't these men receive the Holy Spirit when they believed?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this statement.

    I will assume you don't agree with the ones I posted because it contradicts what you see in the situation with Cornelius.?

    If that's the case then you have to reconcile it somehow. How do you make both true?
    A person can be saved before a water baptism, during a water baptism, or after a water baptism.

    You are the one who cannot reconcile the scriptures, for what you say makes Cornelius and his whole household yet saved when they were saved, according to your defense of the false teachings of the church of Christ denomination.

    There were people in the Bible who did not get saved after a water baptism and prayers had to be made to God so that they would be.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    That is what the world would have us believe today but I don't see any proof of this in scripture.

    Acts 19:2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    Why didn't these men receive the Holy Spirit when they believed?
    What did you just say?

    The scripture says they did NOT believe.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You are the one who cannot reconcile the scriptures, for what you say makes Cornelius and his whole household yet saved when they were saved,
    I can reconcile them just fine. I see Paul had his sins because he hadn't died with Christ in baptism.
    Cornelius was a special situation and Peter commanded them to be baptized. Do you know of any other place where someone was commanded to be baptized? That's because it was a special situation. According to the bible, no one else received the Holy Spirit baptism except the apostles.


    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    according to your defense of the false teachings of the church of Christ denomination.
    It's not a denomination because we do not hyphenate Christian and we are the church that Jesus died for.
    Rom. 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.
    Are you hyphenated? Is the name on your building in the bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    There were people in the Bible who did not get saved after a water baptism and prayers had to be made to God so that they would be.
    He was saved he just didn't stay that way. Do you believe OSAS? I don't.
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    What did you just say?

    The scripture says they did NOT believe.
    You'll have to point it out then because I don't see it.
    2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    I can reconcile them just fine. I see Paul had his sins because he hadn't died with Christ in baptism.
    Cornelius was a special situation and Peter commanded them to be baptized. Do you know of any other place where someone was commanded to be baptized? That's because it was a special situation. According to the bible, no one else received the Holy Spirit baptism except the apostles.
    All the saved are special circumstances.
    They could have been water baptized first.
    Peter already had the revelation from God that He will make those who are unclean Gentiles clean. Peter went to Cornelius’ house when it was against the old law to do so. You have not proved your point at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    It's not a denomination because we do not hyphenate Christian and we are the church that Jesus died for.
    Rom. 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.
    Are you hyphenated? Is the name on your building in the bible?
    It is a denomination and it is one that preaches against the people Jesus did save and give his Holy Spirit to before a water baptism.

    What do you mean am I hyphenated?

    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    He was saved he just didn't stay that way.
    Who are you talking about? I said there were people in the Bible who did not get saved after a water baptism and prayers had to be made to God so that they would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post

    Do you believe OSAS? I don't.
    No. However, I do believe that when someone is saved it would be rare to lose their salvation.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosixx View Post
    You'll have to point it out then because I don't see it.
    2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
    The people were disciples of John the baptizer. Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They say that they have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit---which shows that they did not believe because they never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. How can they believe in something they had not heard of?
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    All the saved are special circumstances.
    They could have been water baptized first.
    Peter already had the revelation from God that He will make those who are unclean Gentiles clean. Peter went to Cornelius’ house when it was against the old law to do so. You have not proved your point at all.
    Why did Peter COMMAND they be baptized?


    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    It is a denomination and it is one that preaches against the people Jesus did save and give his Holy Spirit to before a water baptism.
    It is not a denomination. There is no headquarters other than in heaven, no creed other than the bible. We are set up just like the church Jesus died for and we read about in scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    What do you mean am I hyphenated?
    Baptist-Christian or Catholic-Christian or Mormon-Christian. Christ is not divided. We are merely Christians with Christ name on our building. What name is on your building?? Can it be found in God's word?

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Who are you talking about? I said there were people in the Bible who did not get saved after a water baptism and prayers had to be made to God so that they would be.
    You did not give a scripture so I had to assume who you were talking about, Simon. Who are you talking about?
    Wretched man that I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    The people were disciples of John the baptizer. Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They say that they have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit---which shows that they did not believe because they never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. How can they believe in something they had not heard of?
    I would disagree. Paul does not question they are believers. He never teaches them about Jesus only straightens out the issue of baptism.

    If you will read the end of Acts 18, you will see why Paul does not teach them Jesus.
    Acts 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, 28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.
    We see Apollos taught Jesus accurately but only knew John's baptism. That's why there were believers but had not been baptized into Jesus' name.

    V.27 Apollos went to Achaia which is where Corinth is located. While Apollos was there Paul rolls into Ephesus.

    19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland[a] country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
    If they were disciples of John, they would not know Jesus died for their sins and we would see Paul telling them that. He doesn't because the only thing they didn't know accurately was baptism. That's why he doesn't question if they believed, or if they knew Jesus, he only teaches them about baptism. Then he baptizes them right before giving them the Holy Spirit.
    Wretched man that I am.

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