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Thread: Did Christ know He was fully God?

  1. #256
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Hello Patrick Jane,

    I am still waiting for your direct reply to my questions.

    Hello?

    Is anyone out there?
    I'm sorry you don't understand, pray for understanding and spiritual discernment. I'm confident that God will show you before you die.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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  3. #257
    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Spoiler
    How can I answer any better than you've been told here for years? If I try to put in my own words I can't convince you. Please read this, maybe it will help you and @keypurr.


    Someone has said it this way: If you try to explain the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny it, you will lose your soul. Let's take a look at the defintion of the Trinity and what the role of the Trinity is today
    The Trinity Defined

    There are many places we might go to find a suitable definition. Any of the great ecumenical creeds would serve us well in this regard. However, let's stick closer to home and simply reprint Article B—The True God from the Calvary Memorial Church Articles of Faith.
    We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth; who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and holy.
    We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. Matthew 3:16, 17;Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.
    While I am sure that this statement is biblically accurate, I also understand that it can seem very intimidating. Let's break it down into six smaller statements about the trinity that's easier to understand:

    • One God and One Only
    • Exists in three Persons
    • Equal and Eternal
    • Worthy of equal praise and worship
    • Distinct yet acting in unity
    • Constituting the one true God of the Bible

    As you might imagine, the early church struggled mightily over this doctrine. They eventually reduced their belief in the Trinity to two short statements. They concluded that God is …

    • One in Essence
    • Three in Person

    When we say these things we mean that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but they are not three gods but only one God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father, but each is God individually and yet they are together the one true God of the Bible.
    Have you ever seen the word "Godhead?" Theologians sometimes use that term when they want to refer to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as three divine Persons in one God.
    At this point I think we should acknowledge the chief objection to the doctrine of the Trinity, which is that it is absurd. Sometimes the Jehovah's Witnesses (who pointedly deny the Trinity) ridicule it with this little equation: 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. In their minds Christians worship three Gods, not one. The answer is quite simple. The doctrine of the Trinity is not absurd if that's what the Bible teaches. Furthermore, there is more than one way to play with equations. You could also say it this way: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1!
    The Trinity Explained

    What exactly do we mean when we speak of the Trinity? Let's start with the negative and work toward the positive.
    A. What we don't mean
    First of all, Christians don't believe in three Gods. That's a heresy called Tritheism. Second, we don't believe that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three "forms" of God—like, steam, water and ice. That's the heresy called Modalism. Third, we don't believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "parts" or "pieces" or God. That would imply that Jesus is 1/3rd God, the Father is 1/3rd God, and the Holy Spirit is 1/3rd God.

    B. Where do we find the Trinity doctrine in the Bible?
    I would answer that the Trinity is taught in both the Old and the New Testaments. It is taught by implication in the Old and by direct statement in the New.

    For instance, the Bible contains numerous clear statements regarding the unity of God: Deuteronomy 6:4 tells us that "the Lord is one." 1 Corinthians 8:4 adds that "there is no God but one." 1 Timothy 2:5 explicitly says "there is one God." All Christians heartily affirm this truth.
    However, the Bible also contains clear statements regarding diversity within that unity. For instance, in the very first verse of the Bible we are told that "In the beginning God." The Hebrew word for God is elohim, which is actually a plural form of the word el. It's a word that in other contexts is sometimes translated as "gods," referring to heathen deities. Later in the same chapter we have one of the most striking statements of diversity-in-unity:
    Then God said, ‘‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Genesis 1:26-27
    Notice the shift in pronouns. "Let us … in our image … So God created man in his own image. … he created him." From us and our to he. Why the shift? Commentators speak of a literary form called the plural of majesty or the "editorial we." This much is certainly true. If Genesis 1 does not explicitly teach diversity-in-unity within the Godhead, it certainly leaves room for it to be developed later in the Bible.
    Isaiah 48:16 seems to explicitly refer to all three Persons of the Trinity (with my additions in parentheses): "And now the Sovereign LORD (the Father) has sent me (the Son), with his Spirit (the Holy Spirit)." I'm not suggesting that Isaiah fully understood the Trinity or that the Jewish readers would have understood what it meant, but I do think that in the light of the New Testament, we can say that this seems to be a clear statement of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
    Consider further this line of evidence. All Three Persons are called God in different places in the Bible.


    How could the Son and the Spirit be called God unless they somehow share in God's essence? But if they share in God's essence, they are God alongside the Father.
    Finally, all three Persons are associated together on an equal basis in numerous passages:

    • Jesus' baptism—Matthew 3:13-17 (voice of the Father, Son baptized, Spirit descending like a dove).
    • Salvation—1 Peter 1:2 (chosen by the Father, sanctified by the Spirit, sprinkled with the blood of Jesus).
    • Sanctification—2 Corinthians 13:14 (grace of the Lord Jesus, love of God, fellowship of the Holy Spirit).
    • Christian Baptism—Matthew 28:19 (baptized in one name, yet three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
    • Prayer—Ephesians 3:14-21 (strengthened by his Spirit, know the love of Christ, filled with the fullness of God).
    • Christian Growth—2 Thessalonians 2:13 (chosen by God, loved by the Lord, sanctified by the Spirit).

    This list of passages might be extended. It simply shows how easily the writers of Scripture passed from one Person of the Trinity to another, doing so in a way that assumes their equality of nature while preserving their distinct personhood. If the doctrine of the Trinity is not true, it would seem to be blasphemy to speak so freely of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in one and the same breath.
    The Trinity Examined

    In this section of the message I want to examine some of the common questions about the Trinity.
    A. Where in the Bible do you find the word Trinity?
    The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. Neither is the word "Inerrancy" but we don't discard it simply because it isn't found in the Bible. The issue is not the word, but the concept or the idea. We don't believe in the Trinity because of the word, but because of what the Bible teaches.

    B. Is there another word we could use?
    Yes there is. Theologians sometimes speak of the Tri-Unity of God. That's a good word—even though it sounds odd to our ears—because it combines the two ideas of unity and diversity in one word. There is a third word you should know. Sometimes we speak of the "Triune" God. That's also another word that means the same thing as Trinity.

    C. How can we illustrate the Trinity?
    A number of illustrations have been suggested. They all are useful as long as you remember they are only illustrations. For water can exist as solid, liquid, or steam. That's okay, but usually water only exists in one state at a time. However, there is a physical condition in which water can exist as solid, liquid and steam at the same time—which would be a much better illustration of the Trinity.



    https://www.christianity.com/god/trinity/god-in-three-persons-a-doctrine-we-barely-understand-11634405.html
    Your link isn't working properly...


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  5. #258
    Over 4000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    I'm sorry you don't understand, pray for understanding and spiritual discernment. I'm confident that God will show you before you die.
    So, you avoid the questions again.

    What a pitifully erroneous doctrine when the adherents cannot answer a simple question.

    Here's another one.

    Since Jesus said, "I can of myself do nothing" how does that indicate that he thought he was fully God?

    What a pitifully unscriptural doctrine
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Well, since the trinitarian doctrine requires a "dual nature" in order for Jesus to be both God and a human, maybe God part knew that the God part was fully God, but the human part did not know? After all, would God say of himself," I can of myself do nothing"?

    However, since all of God's creation is dependent on God for its very existence, even the crowning achievement of God's six days of restoration, Genesis 1, that is man and woman, would not be without God.

    Even so, Jesus Christ.

    However, referring to the contradictory nature of "dual nature" how could the human part of Jesus be the God part of Jesus? If they are one, then you do not have a dual nature, but if you do have a dual nature, then the human part was a product of the God part.

    The human part was not God,then Jesus was not fully God if he had a dual nature.

    Why not start afresh? Why not simply let scripture speak for itself?

    Why not simply believe Jesus simple statement, "I can of myself do nothing"?

    Why not let God be God and let God's son be the son of God?
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

  8. #260
    Over 4000 post club Caino's Avatar
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    As he matured Jesus became aware that he was both human and divine.

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    Over 4000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    I figure bringing back someone to life after he was dead for several days would be a divine attribute. Returning to life after being several days dead Himself, even more so.
    Well according to I Thessalonians 4:16

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    "the dead in Christ shall rise first"

    It says the dead in Christ shall rise.

    These dead in Christ include those believers from the first century who have been dead for a couple of thousand of years.

    Not just a few days!

    It does not say "God shall raise them from the dead"

    Verse 16 states that the dead in Christ shall rise!

    Put that in your thinking for while!
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    As he matured Jesus became aware that he was both human and divine.
    All salvation is divine. All believers are divine.

    Divine means "godly, or, from or proceeding from God"

    It does not mean, "is God"
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Over 4000 post club Caino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    All salvation is divine. All believers are divine.

    Divine means "godly, or, from or proceeding from God"

    It does not mean, "is God"
    From my holy book:

    II. GOD


    0:2.1 Evolving mortal creatures experience an irresistible urge to symbolize their finite concepts of God. Man's consciousness of moral duty and his spiritual idealism represent a value level—an experiential reality—which is difficult of symbolization.

    0:2.2 Cosmic consciousness implies the recognition of a First Cause, the one and only uncaused reality. God, the Universal Father, functions on three Deity-personality levels of subinfinite value and relative divinity expression:

    1. Prepersonal—as in the ministry of the Father fragments, such as the Thought Adjusters.
    2. Personal—as in the evolutionary experience of created and procreated beings.
    3. Superpersonal—as in the eventuated existences of certain absonite and associated beings.

    0:2.6 GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity. The term requires a different definition on each personal level of Deity function and must be still further redefined within each of these levels, as this term may be used to designate the diverse co-ordinate and subordinate personalizations of Deity; for example: the Paradise Creator Sons—the local universe fathers.

    0:2.7 The term God, as we make use of it, may be understood:

    By designation—as God the Father.
    By context—as when used in the discussion of some one deity level or association. When in doubt as to the exact interpretation of the word God, it would be advisable to refer it to the person of the Universal Father.

    0:2.10 The term God always denotes personality. Deity may, or may not, refer to divinity personalities.

    0:2.11 The word GOD is used, in these papers, with the following meanings:

    1. God the Father—Creator, Controller, and Upholder. The Universal Father, the First Person of Deity.

    2. God the Son—Co-ordinate Creator, Spirit Controller, and Spiritual Administrator. The Eternal Son, the Second Person of Deity.

    3. God the Spirit—Conjoint Actor, Universal Integrator, and Mind Bestower. The Infinite Spirit, the Third Person of Deity.

    4. God the Supreme—the actualizing or evolving God of time and space. Personal Deity associatively realizing the time-space experiential achievement of creature-Creator identity. The Supreme Being is personally experiencing the achievement of Deity unity as the evolving and experiential God of the evolutionary creatures of time and space.

    5. God the Sevenfold—Deity personality anywhere actually functioning in time and space. The personal Paradise Deities and their creative associates functioning in and beyond the borders of the central universe and power-personalizing as the Supreme Being on the first creature level of unifying Deity revelation in time and space. This level, the grand universe, is the sphere of the time-space descension of Paradise personalities in reciprocal association with the time-space ascension of evolutionary creatures.

    6. God the Ultimate—the eventuating God of supertime and transcended space. The second experiential level of unifying Deity manifestation. God the Ultimate implies the attained realization of the synthesized absonite-superpersonal, time-space-transcended, and eventuated-experiential values, co-ordinated on final creative levels of Deity reality.

    7. God the Absolute—the experientializing God of transcended superpersonal values and divinity meanings, now existential as the Deity Absolute. This is the third level of unifying Deity expression and expansion. On this supercreative level, Deity experiences exhaustion of personalizable potential, encounters completion of divinity, and undergoes depletion of capacity for self-revelation to successive and progressive levels of other-personalization. Deity now encounters, impinges upon, and experiences identity with, the Unqualified Absolute." UB 1955

    "Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil doing of his ancestors."UB

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    Over 4000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    From my holy book:

    II. GOD


    0:2.1 Evolving mortal creatures experience an irresistible urge to symbolize their finite concepts of God. Man's consciousness of moral duty and his spiritual idealism represent a value level—an experiential reality—which is difficult of symbolization.

    0:2.2 Cosmic consciousness implies the recognition of a First Cause, the one and only uncaused reality. God, the Universal Father, functions on three Deity-personality levels of subinfinite value and relative divinity expression:

    1. Prepersonal—as in the ministry of the Father fragments, such as the Thought Adjusters.
    2. Personal—as in the evolutionary experience of created and procreated beings.
    3. Superpersonal—as in the eventuated existences of certain absonite and associated beings.

    0:2.6 GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity. The term requires a different definition on each personal level of Deity function and must be still further redefined within each of these levels, as this term may be used to designate the diverse co-ordinate and subordinate personalizations of Deity; for example: the Paradise Creator Sons—the local universe fathers.

    0:2.7 The term God, as we make use of it, may be understood:

    By designation—as God the Father.
    By context—as when used in the discussion of some one deity level or association. When in doubt as to the exact interpretation of the word God, it would be advisable to refer it to the person of the Universal Father.

    0:2.10 The term God always denotes personality. Deity may, or may not, refer to divinity personalities.

    0:2.11 The word GOD is used, in these papers, with the following meanings:

    1. God the Father—Creator, Controller, and Upholder. The Universal Father, the First Person of Deity.

    2. God the Son—Co-ordinate Creator, Spirit Controller, and Spiritual Administrator. The Eternal Son, the Second Person of Deity.

    3. God the Spirit—Conjoint Actor, Universal Integrator, and Mind Bestower. The Infinite Spirit, the Third Person of Deity.

    4. God the Supreme—the actualizing or evolving God of time and space. Personal Deity associatively realizing the time-space experiential achievement of creature-Creator identity. The Supreme Being is personally experiencing the achievement of Deity unity as the evolving and experiential God of the evolutionary creatures of time and space.

    5. God the Sevenfold—Deity personality anywhere actually functioning in time and space. The personal Paradise Deities and their creative associates functioning in and beyond the borders of the central universe and power-personalizing as the Supreme Being on the first creature level of unifying Deity revelation in time and space. This level, the grand universe, is the sphere of the time-space descension of Paradise personalities in reciprocal association with the time-space ascension of evolutionary creatures.

    6. God the Ultimate—the eventuating God of supertime and transcended space. The second experiential level of unifying Deity manifestation. God the Ultimate implies the attained realization of the synthesized absonite-superpersonal, time-space-transcended, and eventuated-experiential values, co-ordinated on final creative levels of Deity reality.

    7. God the Absolute—the experientializing God of transcended superpersonal values and divinity meanings, now existential as the Deity Absolute. This is the third level of unifying Deity expression and expansion. On this supercreative level, Deity experiences exhaustion of personalizable potential, encounters completion of divinity, and undergoes depletion of capacity for self-revelation to successive and progressive levels of other-personalization. Deity now encounters, impinges upon, and experiences identity with, the Unqualified Absolute." UB 1955
    Your book has errors in it.

    There is not three person god combined into one.

    God is not a set of triplets.
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    LIFETIME MEMBER meshak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    All salvation is divine. All believers are divine.

    Divine means "godly, or, from or proceeding from God"

    It does not mean, "is God"
    it makes perfect sense.
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER meshak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Your book has errors in it.

    There is not three person god combined into one.

    God is not a set of triplets.
    spot on.
    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

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    Over 4000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshak View Post
    spot on.
    Thanks meshak
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

  16. #268
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Another good Trinity Thread taken over by heretics.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    So, you avoid the questions again.

    What a pitifully erroneous doctrine when the adherents cannot answer a simple question.

    Here's another one.

    Since Jesus said, "I can of myself do nothing" how does that indicate that he thought he was fully God?

    What a pitifully unscriptural doctrine
    As I said, you don't understand, comprehend, grasp, see or hear. I can't explain why you don't. I knew this as a child and I can see it in countless scriptures (all of which you ignore). I saw it before I ever went to the studies and writings that have been done throughout history by people smarter than you and I. There's no point in discussing it with you, your mind is closed. Have fun.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Another good Trinity Thread taken over by heretics.
    Yes, but who are the heretics.

    Too bad Jesus Christ would disagree with your conclusions.

    You say he is fully God and knew it.

    You say he is the all powerful God who created the heavens and the earth.

    Have you not read the OT where God consistently declares how powerful He is that He does all things by His own counsel?

    Yet,

    Jesus says, "I can of myself do nothing"

    If Jesus is God, then he is clearly contradicting everything he ever stated about himself in the OT.

    Who then is the source of Jesus' wisdom and counsel and power? For clearly, it is not himself.

    Clearly, his power and wisdom and counsel comes from God his Father and God.

    The problem is that the trinitarian doctrine opposes the clear teachings of scripture.

    The problem is that defenders of the trinity have to twist, ignore and discard and name call in order to "defend" their error

    I can only speak of those things which I have seen and heard.

    I ought to obey God rather than men.

    Your world contradicts and rejects scripture, even the very words of Jesus Christ himself

    I see you still avoid answering the simplest of questions about John 10:30

    Your doctrine is so weak, so vile, you cannot answer my question about John 10:30
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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