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Thread: Did Christ know He was fully God?

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    Lightbulb Coming to 'terms'.......


    ~*~*~



    Did Christ know He was fully God?


    Since no one can read the mind of Jesus, no one knows. (blunt truth for you).

    Now diving into 'theology', 'Christology', 'doctrine',...you can entertain any number of theories, concepts, opinions, beliefs, speculations, etc.

    There are a good many passages that seem to indicate Jesus did not know (or 'assume') he was 'God' (however one defines that), just as there are so called 'proof-texts' used by those supporting the 'divinity' claim. This is further compounded by further doctrine and dogmas assuming a human/divine fusion of Jesus, as a 'God-Man' which adds many other elements and implications. Granted by various schools, if an 'incarnation' or merging of two natures is assumed, it is a mystery, although some wonderful explanations are put forth.

    Re: John 8:58 ..... the 'I am' statement, meaning "I have been" or "I have existed" since before Abraham can infer/refer to his 'pre-existence' or 'preeminence' (before physical birth and before Abraham) as the term 'ego eimi' also refers contextually as an identifier that HE is the one that Abraham was looking forward to, as the Messiah, who was existing before Abraham was born in the mind, plan and purpose of God. It can also mean "I am (he)", as its translated in other passages, being an 'identifier' of the subject of the context. 'Ego eimi' does NOT equate to....or mean 'ehyeh' (the divine name used in Ex. 3:14), since many other people say 'ego eimi' are NOT claiming to be YHWH. 'Ego eimi' is common phrase affirming one's identification within a given context of being the subject being referred to. - in a more liberal sense, one can apply the metaphysical/philosophical meaning of 'self-existence' to himself by his own declaration of "I am", and call that 'sentience' the 'consciousness of God' within him, since 'God' alone is the root-source and ground wherein any self-awareness exists,....so 'God' the 'I AM Presence' abides in all conscious beings as the "I" of consciousness.

    Nothing special or unique with the term, being 'generic' yet qualified by context. It is NOT a proper 'name' at all, much less an equivalent of 'YHWH' or 'ehyeh asher ehyeh' . The capitalization of 'ego eimi' in some English translations as 'I AM' in this verse is clear embellishment for doctrinal reasons and justifications. Nothing special about the phrase, neither is it a name. One can check the Septuagint translation of this as well, - it does not 'equate' or 'compute'...since the Septuagint renders 'ehyeh asher ehyeh' as 'I am the Being' ('ego eimi ho on'),....it is the 'ho on' (the one 'being', who was, is existing and is to come) that is 'God' or 'ehyeh'. I find a Unitarian interpretation of this passage much more tenable and no justification for making Jesus into YHWH thru textual gymnastics.

    Per the context, Jesus is claiming a 'pre-existence' and 'preeminence' before Abraham's birth (not claiming to be 'God' by using the common 'phrase' of 'ego eimi' used my everyday folks).

    We would also add that Jesus when he was incarnated as a MAN (born as a human being), could NOT be "fully God" in his incarnational form, constitutionally speaking, regardless of greek metaphysical terms and creative spin doctoring of 'creeds' created by church councils. But hey,....alot of things are so, just because one says so


    ~*~*~


    Note regarding Urantia Book Teaching
    -

    For those following discussion with Caino, a basic knowledge first of UB Christology and its basic theology is essential to engage in a dialogue, and any can visit our thread here for more info on the subject. In Urantia Book (UB) Christology, Jesus is a divine Creator-Son, direct offspring of the Universal Father, so to us, his universe children...he is as 'God' (he is divine), who thru his bestowal (incarnation) on our world, took on or incorporated a human body by some divine mystery or technique...became both 'God' and 'Man' within one personality, so the concept here is similar in some ways to the traditional orthodox Christian concept of the 'Incarnation' (although debates abound with the details and ratios of natures), with a few different nuances and elements given by new revelation.

    Truly, the UB holds Jesus our Creator Son as wholly divine in his pre-existing divine Sonship, as a Creator-Son,...and since a Creator-Son is as 'God' to his created universe and universe-children, he is 'God' and 'Father' of the worlds of his creation, although there is still ever the One Universal Father of all (the Most High God, Original DEITY)....that is the First Source and Center of all. All means all. There is one Universal Father, and many sons. Since Jesus grew in the grace and wisdom of God, the humanity in him was also maturing, learning, developing and integrating itself with-in the divinity. Again, back to the divine mystery of how a Creator Son bestows himself by incarnating as a mortal, is a 'mystery', besides what we can assume or imagine is entailed in the process by whatever rationale or logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Does anyone else preexist?

    Ephesians 1:4

    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Since God chose us before the foundation of the world, how did he know to choose us? Did we preexist?

    II Peter 1:3-4

    3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

    4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    We can partake of the divine nature.

    Are we thus God when we partake of his divine nature

    God, elohim/theos Jesus Christ is referring to the OT said in John 10:33-36

    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    God clearly is referring to men as god.

    There are other passages that likewise refer to a man or men as theos, or elohim.

    Therefore all those references make that man or men to be God?
    * Yes, plenty of other personalities pre-exist in the universe. Like Gabriel who came down from heaven to tell Mary that his boss was in her tommy.

    Anti-preexistence advocates are ok with the Son of God "going up" to heaven and existing there now, they just seem to disbelieve that he could have come down from heaven even though he is the creator of this world.

    Men are children of God and can indeed grow in divinity. Man starts out as a blank slate with potential. The creator Son started out as a divine creation, came down from heaven and lived the life of a man.

    "Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil doing of his ancestors."UB

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    Red face A matter of terms, in space, time or eternity.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Caino View Post
    * Yes, plenty of other personalities pre-exist in the universe. Like Gabriel who came down from heaven to tell Mary that his boss was in her tommy.

    Anti-preexistence advocates are ok with the Son of God "going up" to heaven and existing there now, they just seem to disbelieve that he could have come down from heaven even though he is the creator of this world.

    Men are children of God and can indeed grow in divinity. Man starts out as a blank slate with potential. The creator Son started out as a divine creation, came down from heaven and lived the life of a man.
    Hi Caino,

    Adding to my last post on the issue,....oatmeal would have to understand where you're coming from, and knowing UB theology and Christology would help too.

    Of course all angels or divine sons of God pre-existed the formation of our planet, this physical creation, so many different spirit beings of various orders and calibers 'pre-existed'.

    If you believe Paul's letters, Jesus certainly 'pre-existed' as a celestial angel of some kind, and entered into this sphere or world of relations to enact or engage a salvation of some kind for us mortals, even if you consider such a story a myth or an actual historical event. So most traditional-orthodox Christians certainly believe in Jesus pre-existence, although this may get confused with his incarnation, if we only consider his human nature, which did NOT exist before his birth. BUT, his being as the divine Son of God, that which incarnated into or AS the physical man Jesus (assuming some kind of merging transformation) took place at that incarnational moment. That 'form' of Jesus did NOT pre-exist. Again, we can split hairs over the details.

    Lastly, oatmeal could also be referencing a kind of hypothetical 'pre-existence' that we all had in the MIND of 'God' from eternity past, which is what some of Paul's letters speak about, concerning being 'predestined' or 'preordained' in Christ, per his theology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    Hi Caino,

    Adding to my last post on the issue,....oatmeal would have to understand where you're coming from, and knowing UB theology and Christology would help too.

    Of course all angels or divine sons of God pre-existed the formation of our planet, this physical creation, so many different spirit beings of various orders and calibers 'pre-existed'.

    If you believe Paul's letters, Jesus certainly 'pre-existed' as a celestial angel of some kind, and entered into this sphere or world of relations to enact or engage a salvation of some kind for us mortals, even if you consider such a story a myth or an actual historical event. So most traditional-orthodox Christians certainly believe in Jesus pre-existence, although this may get confused with his incarnation, if we only consider his human nature, which did NOT exist before his birth. BUT, his being as the divine Son of God, that which incarnated into or AS the physical man Jesus (assuming some kind of merging transformation) took place at that incarnational moment. That 'form' of Jesus did NOT pre-exist. Again, we can split hairs over the details.

    Lastly, oatmeal could also be referencing a kind of hypothetical 'pre-existence' that we all had in the MIND of 'God' from eternity past, which is what some of Paul's letters speak about, concerning being 'predestined' or 'preordained' in Christ, per his theology.
    Yes, your last paragraph is what the scriptures teach about this.

    God calls those things which be not as though they were. God foreknows with absolute certainty, therefore, he can speak of future things as absolute realities and truths

    He can make decisions and declarations about the future as foregone conclusions as He has done in the past, ie, Genesis 3:15 for one example

    Is our adversary dead? No, not yet, but do you believe God is right to declare His eventual complete destruction?
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Lightbulb Affording one's vessel to life serivice......

    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Yes, your last paragraph is what the scriptures teach about this.

    God calls those things which be not as though they were. God foreknows with absolute certainty, therefore, he can speak of future things as absolute realities and truths

    He can make decisions and declarations about the future as foregone conclusions as He has done in the past, ie, Genesis 3:15 for one example

    Is our adversary dead? No, not yet, but do you believe God is right to declare His eventual complete destruction?
    On free will:

    Yes,...I agree all knowledge is inherent within the One Universal MIND, so in this sense 'God' is omniscient, however....all potentials, probabilities and possibilities also inhere within the cosmos.... and extend outside into space and time in the continuum of creation, and this is what allows the variables of possible and probable outcomes, determined by factors that affect or condition such destinies. We posit that the factors of individual freedom of choice and other modifiers affect conditions and ultimate destiny IF there is any authentic degree of real freedom at all. (this recognizes the element of 'free will' co-existing with the divine will).

    There is the original, all-pervading and all-encompassing divine will governing and ultimating all things, of course....for the intended and idealized perfection and fulfillment of being already exists in the Absolute. - however, conditions and destines can appear to be modified, varied and attenuated....in the relativity of evolving creation.

    ~*~*~


    Concerning 'pre-existence' we can note such on different levels of being, yet in Paul's concept of 'foreknowledge'/'predestination', it appears as mostly figurative speech for already existing in the MIND of God, at the heart of and prior to creation. We are safest in the broader sense to include all things as pre-existent already in the MIND that conceives and perceives all, prior to time, and in all times.


    -----------


    As far as Jesus knowing he was 'God', this is complicated by so much speculative theology and suppositional Christology, that who really knows? We can only theorize what seems most probable by our own criteria models and doctrinal preferencing. And still, if one be a student of reality, a true religious scientist...he will continue to remain open to the truth revealed in the 'God-Man' or 'Christ' archetype (by seeing if his own religious experience can continually affect true and tried results of spiritual fruit and knowledge by his way of life), hopefully allowing 'Christ' to be formed in him, to be the 'Christ' of God here and now, in his service to LIFE, and that is the imperative of true worship anyone can afford their vessel to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    What say you?
    Based on the gospels, he knew he was special and chosen. But he doubted throughout, which is why Satan was able to tempt him in the desert and why he begged God to reconsider his execution on the eve of the crucifixion. And why he cried out, "Father why have you forsaken me?" whilst on the cross.

    It was the human side of him that questioned himself and his mission.


    On another note: have you noticed that whenever the anti-Christ is depicted, he's always sure of his mission. If the anti-Christ does one day become a reality, I find it more likely to be someone who reluctantly accepts their role in the grand story, not Damien from The Omen.

    And another thing: if Revelations spells out exactly what the anti-Christ will do and what God/Jesus will do to defeat him, why would you bring on the end days exactly how God expects you to? Why not call an audible? Let me out of this way: If I was the anti-Christ, I would NOT follow the path laid out in Revelations. I make my own path because at least there is (however unlikely) hope of victory if you don't follow the script to a T

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    Based on the gospels, he knew he was special and chosen. But he doubted throughout, which is why Satan was able to tempt him in the desert and why he begged God to reconsider his execution on the eve of the crucifixion. And why he cried out, "Father why have you forsaken me?" whilst on the cross.

    It was the human side of him that questioned himself and his mission.
    He never doubted. Doubt is the opposite of faith. I have no clue why you would even say such a thing.

    Satan tried to tempt Him, but he failed. It was His human nature that required He face the same temptations we all do, but that in no way spoke to any doubt on His part.

    Hebrews 2:16-18
    16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    He didn't beg God to reconsider His execution, either, he was simply expressing his natural human weakness of the flesh. He knew He could call down angels from heaven, but did not do so. He willingly laid down His life....it was not taken from Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    He never doubted. Doubt is the opposite of faith. I have no clue why you would even say such a thing.

    Satan tried to tempt Him, but he failed. It was His human nature that required He face the same temptations we all do, but that in no way spoke to any doubt on His part.

    Hebrews 2:16-18
    16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    He didn't beg God to reconsider His execution, either, he was simply expressing his natural human weakness of the flesh. He knew He could call down angels from heaven, but did not do so. He willingly laid down His life....it was not taken from Him.
    If he never doubted, then why did he ask God why he has forsaken him? You can make an argument against the other two, but this one is airtight.

    Doubt doesn't destroy the Jesus story. It makes it real. It makes him relatable. It makes for a realistic example to strive for instead of impossible perfection

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    If he never doubted, then why did he ask God why he has forsaken him? You can make an argument against the other two, but this one is airtight.

    Doubt doesn't destroy the Jesus story. It makes it real. It makes him relatable. It makes for a realistic example to strive for instead of impossible perfection
    That wasn't doubt. It was to fulfill scripture.
    To draw the minds of the listeners to Psalm 22 in proof that He was the coming Messiah.

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    He told us so, Himself.

    Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    He knew all the words of the Psalm, including the rest of that same Psalm below....

    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    That wasn't doubt. It was to fulfill scripture.
    To draw the minds of the listeners to Psalm 22 in proof that He was the coming Messiah.

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    He told us so, Himself.

    Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    He knew all the words of the Psalm, including the rest of that same Psalm below....

    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    I don't see anything that you put there that fixes the problem. You do realize he quoted a psalm about being abandoned by God, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    I don't see anything that you put there that fixes the problem. You do realize he quoted a psalm about being abandoned by God, right?
    There is no problem. You just think there is a problem.

    The same Psalm I quoted says He was not abandoned. You didn't read that part?

    And He said He spoke the words of scripture to show they were concerning Him. Luke 24:44

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    There is no problem. You just think there is a problem.

    The same Psalm I quoted says He was not abandoned. You didn't read that part?

    And He said He spoke the words of scripture to show they were concerning Him. Luke 24:44
    So you're telling me he decided to say the first part about God abandoning him, and just passed on saying the good part? Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    So you're telling me he decided to say the first part about God abandoning him, and just passed on saying the good part? Why?
    He spoke aloud the first words of the Psalm....which all Jews knew quite well. How much strength did He have? Certainly He didn't feel like making long speeches. He got out enough to make it clear He was the promised Messiah. One thing you may be sure of, He knew the entire Psalm and had no doubt God had not abandoned Him...."neither hath He hid His face from Him; but when He cried unto Him, He heard."

    Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

    19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. 23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

    24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    He spoke aloud the first words of the Psalm....which all Jews knew quite well. How much strength did He have? Certainly He didn't feel like making long speeches. He got out enough to make it clear He was the promised Messiah. One thing you may be sure of, He knew the entire Psalm and had no doubt God had not abandoned Him...."neither hath He hid His face from Him; but when He cried unto Him, He heard."

    Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

    19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. 23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

    24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    Well I'll have to agree to disagree. I'll bring it up with my pastor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    If he never doubted, then why did he ask God why he has forsaken him? You can make an argument against the other two, but this one is airtight.

    Doubt doesn't destroy the Jesus story. It makes it real. It makes him relatable. It makes for a realistic example to strive for instead of impossible perfection
    Jesus never doubted. Jesus said the forsake me part because all believe that when one is suffering and dying and not saved from it is forsaken.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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