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Thread: Explain Conservatism

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    Over 5000 post club rexlunae's Avatar
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    Explain Conservatism

    Can someone (a conservative) please explain conservatism to me in the age of Trump? It's main principles, it's ideals, what it's supposed to stand for? Because it's really hard to tell if there's anything but naked partisanship and leader-worship.

    Feel free to lay out any part of it, or an overview of the whole.
    Global warming denialists are like gravity denialists piloting a helicopter, determined to prove a point. We may not have time to actually persuade them of their mistake.

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    STAND UP Tambora's Avatar
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    Conservatism is staying grounded rather than going whichever way the wind blows.

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Conservatism is staying grounded rather than going whichever way the wind blows.
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha


    You're not serious. Right?

    But I'm serious. What are the principles? What are the ideals? It's not all personality and leader-worship, right? So, what is it about?
    Global warming denialists are like gravity denialists piloting a helicopter, determined to prove a point. We may not have time to actually persuade them of their mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha


    You're not serious. Right?

    But I'm serious. What are the principles? What are the ideals? It's not all personality and leader-worship, right? So, what is it about?
    Google it
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Google it
    Obviously, the reason I'm asking people on a forum is because I'm looking for a discussion. Someone who can explain the ideals, and respond to questions. Play the game or don't.

    Also, I'm not sure any definitions more than a few months old would still apply.
    Global warming denialists are like gravity denialists piloting a helicopter, determined to prove a point. We may not have time to actually persuade them of their mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha


    You're not serious. Right?
    Yeah, you're looking for a "discussion"
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Yeah, you're looking for a "discussion"
    I'm challenging conservatives to state their ideals in a defensible way. I have a hunch that there are no conservatives anymore. Not in any serious numbers, at least. Not in mainstream politics. The old pre-Trump conservatives, those who actually were ideas-driven, left. George Will works at MSNBC now. David Frum, Bill Kristal, Rick Wilson. It's hard to name a single intellectual who has gone along for Trumpism. And Trumpists often engage in naked hypocrisy. So, I suspect that it has no ideological underpinnings, but is based on a sort of team mentality. I'm looking for someone to prove me wrong.
    Global warming denialists are like gravity denialists piloting a helicopter, determined to prove a point. We may not have time to actually persuade them of their mistake.

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    Over 5000 post club ClimateSanity's Avatar
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    Trump is Americana. He is very sympathetic to conservatism but is not beholden to it. He is mainly a tool to fight back liberalism and globalism.

    The conservatism I hold to believes in pure unadulterated capitalism. I don't believe in crony capitalism where corporations use government regulations as a tool to harm their less capitalized competition, or as a means to fund their aspirations they cannot raise capital for themselves.

    My conservatism believes in the sanctity of property rights in all of its various forms. It believed in unrestricted free speech no matter how offensive or dangerous it's perceived to be.

    My conservatism believes in the individual over the group regarding rights and I believe in every possible way to limit the power of the state and reserve all power to the individual.

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    Nobody is free when others are oppressed Rusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    Can someone (a conservative) please explain conservatism to me in the age of Trump? It's main principles, it's ideals, what it's supposed to stand for? Because it's really hard to tell if there's anything but naked partisanship and leader-worship.

    Feel free to lay out any part of it, or an overview of the whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    I'm challenging conservatives to state their ideals in a defensible way. I have a hunch that there are no conservatives anymore. Not in any serious numbers, at least. Not in mainstream politics. The old pre-Trump conservatives, those who actually were ideas-driven, left. George Will works at MSNBC now. David Frum, Bill Kristal, Rick Wilson. It's hard to name a single intellectual who has gone along for Trumpism. And Trumpists often engage in naked hypocrisy. So, I suspect that it has no ideological underpinnings, but is based on a sort of team mentality. I'm looking for someone to prove me wrong.
    There is no such thing as "conservatism" in the current nightmare of Trump worship. What we currently have is the political version of Jim Jones. By the time he is done (by either removal of office or term limit), the list of bodies will have grown via his incompetence in health care, S. Korea, etc.

    The Frum's, Kristal's, Wilson's, etc. will eventually be known as the "true heroes" of the party who remained patriotic and didn't sell out the country on the basis of partisan politics.
    Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies,
    their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such,
    for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it.
    Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism









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    Nobody is free when others are oppressed Rusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    BWhat are the principles? What are the ideals? It's not all personality and leader-worship, right? So, what is it about?
    Didn't Conservatives use to brag about family values and discourage wasting government money on things such as exuberant airfare or silly walls being built as a monument to a single person's ego?
    Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies,
    their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such,
    for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it.
    Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism









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    Quote Originally Posted by ClimateSanity View Post
    Trump is Americana. He is very sympathetic to conservatism but is not beholden to it. He is mainly a tool to fight back liberalism and globalism.
    Want to eliminate globalism from the US? Turn in your cell phone and computer for a starter. Buy only a Ford or a Chevy with all parts made here. Check all the labels in the grocery store, dont buy any fruits or veggies from South America.
    You are correct in that Trump is a tool.

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    First of all, CS, thank you for responding. I really do appreciate an earnest attempt to engage with me on this. I take you at your word that you are sincere. And with that, I have a few questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimateSanity View Post
    Trump is Americana.
    I think this is a side point, but I don't really understand that statement. Meaning, I don't know what you mean by it. He's Americana, like he's baseball and apple pie? He's nostalgia? He harkens back to a lost past America?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimateSanity View Post
    He is very sympathetic to conservatism but is not beholden to it. He is mainly a tool to fight back liberalism and globalism.
    Would you say, then, that he's not really of your ideology?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimateSanity View Post
    The conservatism I hold to believes in pure unadulterated capitalism.
    Wouldn't pure unadulterated capitalism be in favor of globalism? Isn't free trade a part of that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimateSanity View Post
    I don't believe in crony capitalism where corporations use government regulations as a tool to harm their less capitalized competition
    I think this is one that just about everyone agrees with, in principle. That is, I don't think anyone espouses crony capitalism as an ideal. So, it's the sort of thing you have to judge based on actual conduct since no one would actually come out in favor of it, and yet it still happens from time to time.

    Did you hear about the small Montana company with close ties to Ryan Zinke that won a $300 million contract to restore power to Puerto Rico? What do you think about that deal? Doesn't that seem a little cozy?

    What do you think about the trouble the government ethics office had getting Trump to follow a reasonable ethics policy and precedent?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimateSanity View Post
    , or as a means to fund their aspirations they cannot raise capital for themselves.
    It's a $4.1 trillion budget. I think it is safe to say that in there is some spending that's someone's pet project, probably a lot of someones. But the thing is, what counts as a pet project versus one that's in the national interest is the subject of politics itself. Some people might say that a border wall is an unnecessary boondoggle that we shouldn't be paying for and that only a small portion of the population actually wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimateSanity View Post
    My conservatism believes in the sanctity of property rights in all of its various forms. It believed in unrestricted free speech no matter how offensive or dangerous it's perceived to be.
    Ok. How do you square that ideal with Trump's threats and intimidations against critics, including media organizations, dating back many many years? Did you hear about his lawsuit against Bill Maher? Or, for that matter, his attacks on his would-be allies who express a hint of Independence, like Jeff Flake. I feel like Trump is antithetical to free speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimateSanity View Post
    My conservatism believes in the individual over the group regarding rights and I believe in every possible way to limit the power of the state and reserve all power to the individual.
    I completely agree with the individual rights part of that. I don't think I'd go along with you for every possible way to limit government power just because it's a little too extreme for me, but I think the Bill of Rights is a very important tool, and that the courts have frequently and inappropriately chipped away at those protections in favor of official power and a sense of order even in the face of great injustice. That's why I support Black Lives Matter, for instance.

    Again, thank you for responding. I hope that we can have a productive discussion.
    Global warming denialists are like gravity denialists piloting a helicopter, determined to prove a point. We may not have time to actually persuade them of their mistake.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    Can someone (a conservative) please explain conservatism to me ...
    Now that some of TOL's vast Libertarian community have spoken, you'll be able to answer your own question by answering these two:

    1). What do you think true conservatives are attempting to 'conserve'?

    con·serve
    VERB
    protect (something, especially an environmentally or culturally important place or thing) from harm or destruction:

    and

    2). Where do those true conservatives find their core set of principles, i.e. what doctrine do these true conservatives look to in order to promote cultural mores' and legislate laws in the nation that they're living in?
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    Galatians 4:16

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    The year 1960, though, brought a turning point for the conservative movement. That year Barry Goldwater published The Conscience of a Conservative. Generally dismissed in the national media, the book stands today as one of the most important political tracts in modern American history.

    As the historian Robert Alan Goldberg demonstrates in Barry Goldwater, his fine new biography, The Conscience of a Conservative advanced the conservative cause in several ways. Building on William F. Buckley's pathbreaking work at National Review, Goldwater adeptly reconciled the differences between traditionalists and libertarians. The expansion of the welfare state, he wrote, was an unfortunate and dangerous development that undermined individual freedom. Suggesting that New Deal liberalism marked the first step on the road to totalitarianism, Goldwater argued that government should be removed from most areas of American life. Yet he was no strict libertarian. Appealing to those on the right who longed to recapture lost certitudes, he argued that the state had a duty to maintain order and promote virtue. "Politics," Goldwater wrote, is "the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-1960s/376506/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The year 1960, though, brought a turning point for the conservative movement. That year Barry Goldwater published The Conscience of a Conservative. Generally dismissed in the national media, the book stands today as one of the most important political tracts in modern American history...
    Except that Barry Goldwater wasn't a conservative.

    Can We Thank Barry Goldwater for this Libertarian Moment?
    http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/20.../the-takeaway/
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    Galatians 4:16

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