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Thread: What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?

  1. #151
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Adam was always mortal because in order to live for ever he had to eat of the Tree of Life. If he was immortal there would have been no need to eat of that tree.
    I see, and I thought twice about using the word mortal. God's plan was for them to live forever so that's part of His creation, the moment they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that plan changed.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  2. #152
    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Nope. They were already mortal.

    Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Now they would die physically too.

    That tree HAD kept them physically alive.

    But now they were barred from access to it.

    Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    Though one day, the curse of being barred from that life sustaining tree will be...removed.

    Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Of course, a certain person's agreement with you should have been signal enough that your guess was as off as theirs often is.

    Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.
    Hi Danoh.

    We talked about this a bit a few posts back. Jesus described the "children of the resurrection" thus:

    Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. [Luk 20:36 KJV]

    Did the angels need the tree of life? If not, then humans won't either, at least for eternal life. Plus, in the garden they were not commanded to eat of that tree, but allowed to. It seems to mean there was no harm in eating of it, but it was not THE sustainer of life for them.

  3. #153
    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Fair enough, I did think it was a stretch after I slept and realised I should have instead talked about how before the fall Adam, Eve and the World was bathed in the supernatural light that God created on day one but this light went out of Adam, Eve and the World at the fall. BTW I also believe this same supernatural light that covered Adam and Eve also projected as supernatural clothing because when Jesus resurrected he was wearing clothes (He didn't get clothes from somewhere else). Jesus is the light of the world in a literal sense as well as a figurative sense. So what does this have to do with spiritual aliveness, well when Adam died on the day he sinned that light vanished and Adam died spiritually. He was dead in his sins but when Christ resurrected that light returned via Jesus and through faith in Him we are also made alive in Christ, spiritually alive. However, eventually after the 2 resurrections and when God makes a new Heaven and Earth that light will return:

    Revelation 22:5
    There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.
    The light of glory might be "projected" as clothing, but I think you have to stretch the scriptures a bit for any proof of it. We don't know where He got His clothing after the resurrection. I can imagine that His father made Him a coat of many colors, perhaps, since He loves Him so.

    That's something I want to be careful about in this thread--using our already built-up theology to answer questions about death and resurrection instead of trying to find the answers directly in scripture.

    Thanks,
    Derf

  4. #154
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I don't know why the "death" in Jas 1:15 needs to be anything other than physical death.
    Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

    "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).

  5. #155
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:
    "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).
    What does "full grown" mean in James 1:15 KJV - ? Adam lived to be 930 so he didn't physically die on "that" day.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  6. #156
    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

    "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).
    Didn't you already ask this question? http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5134850
    And didn't I already answer it? http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5135116

  7. #157
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    What does "full grown" mean in James 1:15 KJV - ?
    I don't see those words in that verse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Didn't you already ask this question? http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5134850
    And didn't I already answer it? http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5135116
    Sorry,I forgot. But he didn't die physically in that day or on that day.

  9. #159
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I don't see those words in that verse.
    It was in Derf's version.
    Last edited by patrick jane; Today at 10:39 AM.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  10. #160
    Over 500 post club WatchmanOnTheWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    WRONG!

    James quoted from the Greek version of the OT (the Septuigant), but with a slight modification. Here are the verses from the Septuigant :

    "In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things"
    (Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).

    James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words in "bold":

    "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).

    James believed that this prophecy of Amos will not be fulfilled until after the Lord Jesus returns. He quoted those words in regard to a controversy that had arisen in the early church. There were some in the Jerusalem church who believed that the Gentile believers should be required to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses. In other words, some believed that the Gentiles should be members of the commonwealth of Israel. However, James quoted Amos in order to demonstrate that when the Lord Jesus returns there will be Gentiles being saved as Gentiles: "After this I will return...that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called". Therefore it was decided that the Gentile believers did not have to be circumcised and did not have to keep the law" (Acts 15:24-29).

    Stephen Anderson's assertions are easily proven to be false! All he proves that he is ignorant about what the Scriptures actually reveal about this subject. He is a waste of time and if you are smart you will cease from allowing him to influence your beliefs. He cannot be trusted on these serious matters and will only lead you astray!
    RUBBISH!

    Amos 9 has only been partially fulfilled in this age of grace and only from a spiritual POV. It's ultimate fulfilment will be when Jesus returns and literally rebuild's David's fallen tent by building His Millennial Temple in Jerusalem, as described in Ezekiel, and over His 1000 year reign the residue of men, including gentiles, will be saved in that last age before the Great White Throne Judgement.

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    Over 500 post club WatchmanOnTheWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    The light of glory might be "projected" as clothing, but I think you have to stretch the scriptures a bit for any proof of it. We don't know where He got His clothing after the resurrection. I can imagine that His father made Him a coat of many colors, perhaps, since He loves Him so.

    That's something I want to be careful about in this thread--using our already built-up theology to answer questions about death and resurrection instead of trying to find the answers directly in scripture.

    Thanks,
    Derf
    Yes there's few scriptures to go on when dealing with certain issues, that's why I wanted to show you all that other stuff because it's like putting a jigsaw together when you don't have the box lid to go by and it seems there are pieces missing too. By using as much of the verses as possible to complete the parts of the picture that we can complete then it makes it easier to see what left and how they fit together.

    So understanding the 7000 year plan of God and how His Millennial reign fits into all of this is key to fitting all the other scripture in, where they belong. From there we can then extrapolate the 'missing' bits.

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    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Yes there's few scriptures to go on when dealing with certain issues, that's why I wanted to show you all that other stuff because it's like putting a jigsaw together when you don't have the box lid to go by and it seems there are pieces missing too. By using as much of the verses as possible to complete the parts of the picture that we can complete then it makes it easier to see what left and how they fit together.

    So understanding the 7000 year plan of God and how His Millennial reign fits into all of this is key to fitting all the other scripture in, where they belong. From there we can then extrapolate the 'missing' bits.
    If you think it applies to the "death" and "resurrection" discussion, then please spell it out for me, using your own words. This does two things--it keeps the conversation personal, and it gives you a chance to explain it, cementing in your mind, if you don't start seeing logical pitfalls. God's Truth is a bit of a pest sometimes, but she was right to ask this of you.

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    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Sorry,I forgot. But he didn't die physically in that day or on that day.
    Sure he did, if you don't read into the scriptures your own meaning.

    And here (in the spoiler) are some other things that make little sense if they only happen in a single day. Yet your definition would enforce such a reading. What I'd like you to do is append the words "but only for 24 hours" to the end of each of these verses. See how much sense each makes.

    Spoiler
    And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms [of flies] shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I [am] the LORD in the midst of the earth. [Exo 8:22 KJV]
    Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. [Deut 1:39 KJV]
    Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us? [Deut 31:17 KJV]
    And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. [Deut 31:18 KJV]
    In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; [Isa 2:20 KJV]
    And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. [Isa 4:1 KJV]
    In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. [Isa 4:2 KJV]
    And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep; [Isa 7:21 KJV]
    And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall [even] be for briers and thorns. [Isa 7:23 KJV]
    And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. [Isa 10:20 KJV]
    And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing. [Isa 10:27 KJV]
    And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. [Isa 11:10 KJV]
    And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. [Isa 12:1 KJV]
    And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. [Isa 12:4 KJV]
    And in that day it shall come to pass, [that] the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean. [Isa 17:4 KJV]
    In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation. [Isa 17:9 KJV]
    In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it. [Isa 19:16 KJV]
    In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction. [Isa 19:18 KJV]
    In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. [Isa 19:19 KJV]
    And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform [it]. [Isa 19:21 KJV]
    In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. [Isa 19:23 KJV]
    In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that [was] upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken [it]. [Isa 22:25 KJV]
    And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. [Isa 25:9 KJV]
    In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will [God] appoint [for] walls and bulwarks. [Isa 26:1 KJV]
    In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people, [Isa 28:5 KJV]

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