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Thread: If Evolution

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    A note for Jonahdog:
    Going back to the sacred status of scientific literature in Jonah's comments, I would like to point how native American tracking skills can help us define science. You can take classes in this. An experienced tracker can tell now many months a coyote is pregnant by its tracking. There is a scene from the true "Alone, But Not Alone" American revolution period story that the 'Iriquois warrior could track as well running at full speed as we (Germans) could spending an hour at a set of prints.'

    One of the main principles of the skill is about elapsed-time or 'freshness.' A person has to check closely, down to individual grains of sand or dirt, to make conclusions.

    When you come at a question this way, it is like detective work, as I have mentioned from Lewis' essay. Everything is on the table. In geology, a person has to ask 'how fast did this happen?' as often as any other question. When you see a 500 ft high pile of sedimentary deposit with no aging layers or lines, you had a slurry that was powerful enough to push that much around before it desaturated--lost liquidity. 'where did it come from?' If you find sediment from Lake Missoula in Eugene, OR, excavations, you had to have enough speed to keep everything aloft. You had to have conditions to create such speed for the slurry. Gravity otherwise drops things as quickly as possible.

    When the Oso, WA, hillside slide happened a few years ago, the geologists were surprised at the distance it covered. They expected about half the distance. They had all those piles of 'scientific literature.'

    You hardly hear about this kind of thing in 'scientific literature', although the Brithish catastrophic geologist Ager is familiar with it even with his denial of Genesis of one of many records of cataclysmic mantle violence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    A note for Jonahdog:
    Going back to the sacred status of scientific literature in Jonah's comments, I would like to point how native American tracking skills can help us define science. You can take classes in this. An experienced tracker can tell now many months a coyote is pregnant by its tracking. There is a scene from the true "Alone, But Not Alone" American revolution period story that the 'Iriquois warrior could track as well running at full speed as we (Germans) could spending an hour at a set of prints.'

    One of the main principles of the skill is about elapsed-time or 'freshness.' A person has to check closely, down to individual grains of sand or dirt, to make conclusions.

    When you come at a question this way, it is like detective work, as I have mentioned from Lewis' essay. Everything is on the table. In geology, a person has to ask 'how fast did this happen?' as often as any other question. When you see a 500 ft high pile of sedimentary deposit with no aging layers or lines, you had a slurry that was powerful enough to push that much around before it desaturated--lost liquidity. 'where did it come from?' If you find sediment from Lake Missoula in Eugene, OR, excavations, you had to have enough speed to keep everything aloft. You had to have conditions to create such speed for the slurry. Gravity otherwise drops things as quickly as possible.

    When the Oso, WA, hillside slide happened a few years ago, the geologists were surprised at the distance it covered. They expected about half the distance. They had all those piles of 'scientific literature.'

    You hardly hear about this kind of thing in 'scientific literature', although the Brithish catastrophic geologist Ager is familiar with it even with his denial of Genesis of one of many records of cataclysmic mantle violence.
    Ah, I was unaware that I suggested scientific publications were literature.

    And other than the fact that scientists can be surprised, what is your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas veritate View Post
    I hope that you are kidding here. If you could reverse the tectonic shifts and collisions that created the current mountain ranges and dropped the floor of the oceans there is enough water to submerge the planet up to 8,000 feet. The ice caps alone have enough water to raise sea levels by 200 feet if they melted. Flooding is still a major concern for scientists who subscribe to global warming.
    Please provide some sort of evidence for your claim that the ocean could be 8000 ft higher.

    Side note: don't you think there'd be some geological evidence of such MASSIVE tectonic activity in a matter of days?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6days View Post
    Don't be so pseudoscientific Greg. You likely believe that Mars was once covered by vast oceans... a planet without any surface water yet you reject the science that shows every bit of Earth has been underwater in the past and is still currently covered by about two-thirds water
    I've never heard that mars was covered by oceans. I know it once had flowing water because we can observe the old stream beds, and obviously it still has some water in the form of ice.


    Meanwhile, have you figured out why Dinos and modern animals are NEVER found in the same rock strata?

    No? Didn't think so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Jennings View Post
    Have you figured out why Dinos and modern animals are NEVER found in the same rock strata?
    Begging the question is still a logical fallacy.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Begging the question is still a logical fallacy.
    Not even attempting to answer that question is standard Christian fundamentalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gcthomas View Post
    Billions of things did happen, but not in order to have what we have today. Of history could be rerun, what we have now would be different, but we'd never know. Evolutionary outcomes are probabilistic, not deterministic.
    Scripture states that the world was formless and void when before God created the universe. Each step of God's creating took place in the measure of our current standard time measure of one day. But this only serves to clarify for those Christians who tend to hold to the evolution theory...they want to subscribe to both the Creation and the evolution theory. Evolutionists will usually reject Creation out of hand...it requires faith as Hebrews tells us...
    Hebrews 11:3:
    3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at Godís command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

    Faith comes from hearing the message...
    Romans 10:17:
    17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

    Our hurdle is finding the atheist willing enough to to hear the message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]There are no previous ancestors to prove evolution as true.
    When I was in college, there were no transitional whales. No transitional bats, frogs, ants, turtles, and so on. And creationists asked "where are these transitionals you keep predicting? Then over the years, these and many more turned up as paleontologists continued to work.

    You're about a half-century behind.

    There is no evidence beneath the Cambrian layer to support Evolution.
    Wrong again. The Precambrian Ediacaran biota was widespread, multicellular, and include the first examples of body plans that diversified in the Cambrian. Want to learn about those?

    The fossil record shows that while many species suddenly died out, others suddenly sprang into existence.
    No. In Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms, YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise lists a large number of series of transitional forms, saying that they are "strong evidence" for evolution. He can't explain them in creationist terms, but expresses confidence that they will someday be so.

    An honest creationist. They are more common than you might believe by cruising creationist sites on the web.

    If Evolution was true of this world, then the living fossils of today would have changed
    Indeed, they have. For example, the two surviving species of coelacanths are very different from the ancient forms from which they evolved.

    There are no ancient species of horseshoe crab alive today; they have evolved into other species.

    Crocodiles are extremely ancient, older than dinosaurs. But the modern ones are quite different than ancient species, which included vegetarian crocs, and those standing upright. (when crododiles want to move really fast, usually to flee, they gallop as their ancestors did)

    The closest thing I can think of to an unchanged species would be elephant shark (actually not a shark), which seems to have changed very little in hundreds of millions of years. But then they have been living on the bottom of seas, along continental shelves, and that environment has been pretty constant for a very, very long time.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    Not even attempting to answer that question is standard Christian fundamentalism.
    I answered it, Dum Dum.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    If evolution is true:

    - Why do we still have monkeys?
    - Why do elephants never give birth to giraffes?
    - Why do we never see an animal that is half hippopotamus and half paramecium?

    Q.E.D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    I answered it, Dum Dum.
    When Mrs. Barbarian was in graduate school, we lived in a university housing area. Behind us, was a family with a little girl who (being Iranian), knew little English, so when she was irritated, she'd always say "You dummy dummy."

    Of course, English was her second language, and she was about 5 years old.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUTG View Post
    If evolution is true:

    - Why do we still have monkeys?
    If you're alive, how can your uncle not be dead? You do know that evolutionary theory says that humans didn't evolve from monkeys, right?

    Why do elephants never give birth to giraffes?
    They usually have G-sections.

    Why do we never see an animal that is half hippopotamus and half paramecium?
    You know, I've actually had creationists ask me these questions for real.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Darwinists love answering nonsense questions.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    There is not an organism in the world, living or fossilised, which does not have ghost lineages.

    That means it has missing links in its fossil record.

    For evolutionists, the missing links can be blamed on an incomplete fossil record.

    For Creationists, the sudden appearance of the organism can be explained by a creation event.

    Thus, both evolutionists and creationists rely on faith. Evolutionists have faith in an incomplete fossil record. Creationists have faith in a Creator God.

    To both, their faith is perfectly logical.
    Stop the culling of Cape Town's baboons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iouae View Post
    Creationists rely on faith.
    Nope. Evidence. Stop pretending Darwinists have contributed anything useful to this discussion.

    Creationists have faith in a Creator God.
    So do evolutionists.

    To both, their faith is perfectly logical.
    It doesn't matter if something is logical "to" someone; it matters whether it is logical at all.

    You can't play a rational part in a conversation when your assertions always need so much correcting.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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