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Thread: Liberalism is Dead and Evangelicals Don't Deserve It Anyway

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    Liberalism is Dead and Evangelicals Don't Deserve It Anyway

    When Ebenz recently banned me, I was fairly sure that it was over the California, Aids and Jews thread. I was, of course, fully prepared, upon my return, to send her a private message criticizing her action...only to find, upon my return, that I was banned over an off-hand comment I had made in another thread.

    Fair enough. Obviously, I disagree with the decision, but fair enough.

    Imagine my further shock when, after posting nothing in the interim, I find myself banned yet again by Sherman for the California, Aids and the Jews thread, and find the thread locked.

    To be clear, this thread is not a criticism of either moderator action. Such a criticism would be pointless, and frankly, the idea of wasting on criticizing the actions of either of these people is beneath my contempt.

    Rather, I wish to use this occasion as an illustration of my oft-repeated claim: Liberalism is dead. Nobody actually believes in it.

    The core doctrine of liberalism, in the classical sense, is laissez faire (let it be). Liberalism is tolerance. Liberalism is the political doctrine that, though I may find what other people think, say, and, to a real extent, do, to be abhorrent, nonetheless, I shouldn't intervene, because it could well be the case that people who think differently may think the same about me.

    My tolerance of others gives me, in turn, a right to be tolerated. Not endorsed. Not accepted. But certainly tolerated.

    The old cliches come to mind: "Swing your umbrella as much as you like, so long as you don't strike my nose," and again, "I may disagree with what you say, I should defend to my death your right to say it."

    Of course, liberty has clear boundaries and restrictions. The right to free speech should be absolute...save where that speech constitutes a clear and present infringement against the rights of another. Direct incitements to violence must be forbidden, and it is for good reason that libel and slander, strictly construed, are civilly actionable.

    When, however, speech does not constitute infringement upon the rights of others, it must be permitted, and this, for a multitude of reasons. First, if you deny me the right to express my opinions, then you have no grounds upon which to object when you yourself are denied the right to express yours. Second, if my opinions are so obviously incorrect, then allowing me to express them is actually a service to your own cause, since I am providing you a chance to refute obviously false opinions. Denying me a right to speak is an active disservice to your own cause.

    If anything, the opposite is true: the fact that you had to deny me the right to speak is, in a sense, a proof of the weakness of your own beliefs.

    Shutting me down means that your own views aren't strong enough to stand on their own merits in the free marketplace of ideas.

    The simple fact, however, is that even though our society is liberal de jure, it is illiberal in practice. Most people are not liberal. 40% of millennial college students believe in hate speech laws. 20% of millennial college students, roughly, think that it's perfectly acceptable to use violence to shut down speech that they deem objectionable. A large percent of Republicans are perfectly fine, even, with legislative crackdowns on the freedom to protest.

    But that only tells part of the story.

    The simple fact is that most people live in a bubble. Evangelical right wingers have their circles, left wing SJWs have theirs, and so forth and so on.

    And how specific and narrow these bubbles are. Consider how strange the TOL bubble is. Right wing economic policy? Great, especially if accompanied by a subtly racist subtext. Foreign military interventions? Yes! Express the view that, perhaps, homosexual conduct merits the death penalty? All day long! Insist that every single undocumented immigrant, even if they came here as babies, have to go back? And even rail against so called "anchor babies"? Naturally!

    Say things explicitly critical of Jews, black people, and brown people, even if what you are saying doesn't constitute incitement to violence, slander, libel, etc., and is technically WAY more mild than the things that right wing evangelicals say? NO! The mere mention of the word "Jew" is somehow unacceptable! Talk as much as you want about how practicing homosexuals deserve to die, but don't you DARE explicitly repeat a racial stereotype!

    We live in a de jure "liberal" society full of people who are not liberal, who are wholly uninterested in hearing from the other side, who only consume news and opinions which "verify" their own pre-existing worldviews, and who are chomping at the bit to deny a platform, wheresoever possible, to people who disagree with them.

    And let's be honest, TOL: I'm sure that many of you cheered when Trump threatened to deny a license to news media which are critical of him, and when he threatened the NFL over their failure to fire protesting football players, didn't you?

    But I'm sure that many of you complain bitterly, on a regular basis, about triggered special snowflakes who try to deplatform right wing speakers on college campuses.

    Face the facts: most people in our society, whether left wing or right wing, are triggered special snowflakes (including the moderators of this website) who cannot STAND the thought of taking part in a free and open marketplace of ideas, who pay lip service to freedom of speech and liberty, but deny it in practice.

    Liberalism is dead. And none of you deserve it anyway.

    I would have no sympathy if each and every one of you were forced by the government to bake a gay wedding cake at some point in your life.

    You deserve it.

    Hail victory!

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    Interesting post, and more than well worth the read...

    I was reminded of some "friends" of a "more baser sort" I had many years ago, back when I was in the world.

    Over at their house, they would insist on playing their music.

    Only to insist on their music, when over at my house.

    End of inviting them over

    Such are the ways of the world the Believer is reminded in such as Romans 12, he or she is to let go of.

    Thus, your post was worth the read.

    But at the end of it; you end up as un-liberal as those whose un-liberalness towards you, you are lamenting.

    But that is your right.

    Even if, as you have stated, you should be robbed of it once more.

    For that is all said supposed such, can do to you, rob you of that right only within their own house.

    In which case, either ignore the supposed double-standard of such, because at the end of the day, each individual is where they are and one is not necessarily going to have one's cake and eat it too, or continue to frustrate yourself with the expectation that such supposed individuals should change just to make you happy.

    Face it - the world is full of unfair individuals.

    And even more so, and as you so astutely pointed out; the world is full of people who do not view their double-standard as a double-standard.

    It is what it is.

    It is why...

    Romans 5:8 was so necessary.

    In short, just view such supposed individuals thru the lens of said passage of Scripture.

    And while you're at it; view yourself thru the same lens of that passage.

    Result; come what may, from whatever and or whomever?

    Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

    That's right - within the midst of any ungreeable situation.

    Amazing Grace...indeed.

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    Trad,

    I agree with much of what you have said about the value of free speech, and how it should not be used as "I encourage free speech, ....... but not if you want to talk about this, this, or this".
    And I agree that to have a rule that says one cannot say anything negative about the Jews is a bit extreme.

    But this is TOL we are talking about here.
    TOL has every right to limit what can and cannot be said here.
    And it's not like the TOL rules always remain iron-clad forever.
    There have been changes in the rules here at TOL over the years.
    Some restrictions have been removed, and some have been added.
    Times change, atmosphere changes, interests change, and TOL has tried to stay updated with the changes.

    So, long story short, if you want to continue to be a part of TOL then you are going to have to honor the agreement you consented to when you joined the site and follow the site rules until the time comes that your opinions will be allowed for us to discuss objectively.

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Over at their house, they would insist on playing their music.

    Only to insist on their music, when over at my house.

    End of inviting them over
    This is a common analogy that's used to defend the illiberal practices of forum moderators, and I don't think that it works. One's home and an internet group or forum are qualitatively different. The entire reason why you would set up an internet forum is to facilitate the free flow of ideas/information about a given topic or set of topics.

    However, in practice, that's not what happens. They are primarily used to reinforce one's own ideological bubble. Knight, e.g., has explicitly acknowledged that TOL's moderation is biased towards people who share his views and against people who disagree with his views.

    And it's not just TOL. That's almost universally true of most discussion groups.

    And it's not even just online. SJWs campaign to have people they disagree with deplatformed from private speaking events.

    But at the end of it; you end up as un-liberal as those whose un-liberalness towards you, you are lamenting.
    Liberalism is doomed. It is no longer tenable. Liberalism only works when the society itself is liberal. We don't have a liberal society. We have a society which is de iure liberal, but de facto censorious and authoritarian. Expressing the wrong opinions can get you banned from internet discussion groups, fired from your job, etc., even if you haven't actually violated anyone's rights.

    The days of liberalism are numbered, and it's already dying in Europe, especially since the advent of the migrant crisis. Except, it's not Nazis who are killing liberalism. It's SJW leftists with things like hate speech laws. You know you can get fined and imprisoned for "misgendering" someone in California now, at least, under certain circumstances, right?

    I am a liberal in principle; however, granted that liberalism is doomed, I would much prefer an illiberal society that suits my own interests than an illiberal society that runs contrary to my interests.

    Better a Nazi society than a marxist society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    TOL has every right to limit what can and cannot be said here.
    Of course they do. Acknowledging the property rights of illiberal people is itself part and parcel of a liberal society.

    On the other hand, that doesn't make them any less illiberal, or any less worthy of liberalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditio View Post
    The entire reason why you would set up an internet forum is to facilitate the free flow of ideas/information about a given topic or set of topics.
    Flow of ideas OF A GIVEN TOPIC.
    Not the flow of ideas of anything you want to talk about.
    You don't create a site about home gardening and allow any ol' body to start posting about porn or quantum physics.
    That would be a poor way to run a site on home gardening.

    God Bless America

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    And to be clear:

    "Jews are undoubtedly the cause of this depravity [i.e., LGBTQ month]."

    That merits a banning?

    That was taken seriously?

    Get more triggered, snowflakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Flow of ideas OF A GIVEN TOPIC.
    Not the flow of ideas of anything you want to talk about.
    You don't create a site about home gardening and allow any ol' body to start posting about porn or quantum physics.
    That would be a poor way to run a site on home gardening.
    Obvious point is obvious.

    And you and I both know that this point doesn't apply either to the case at hand, or to most cases under consideration.

    Even within the range of topics under consideration, most people are only interested in reinforcing their own ideological bubble.

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    Since I will undoubtedly be banned for this thread, I post this song in open defiance:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditio View Post
    Obvious point is obvious.

    And you and I both know that this point doesn't apply either to the case at hand, or to most cases under consideration.

    Even within the range of topics under consideration, most people are only interested in reinforcing their own ideological bubble.
    It boils down to what interest people want to discuss.
    If there is no interest in your topic, then it's kinda unproductive to bring it up.

    And I think you've been here long enough to know that most replies to your topic are going to be nothing more than rants "You racist, bigot, supremacist, etc." to weed through before you could ever get to any sort of rational and objective discussion about it.
    And since they have already labeled you as such, they will automatically write off anything you try to say.

    So while I can appreciate you wanting to be able to voice your opinion as loudly as anyone else gets to voice their opinion; to run a successful discussion site you would need to not cater to the threads of opinions that have no interest from others.
    And you certainly wouldn't cater to threads of opinions that most others are appalled with.
    That's just common sense to keep a forum alive and well.

    God Bless America

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    Tamobra:

    You understand hat you are essentially agreeing with me, right?

    Essentially what you are saying is "Of COURSE we have to ban outlying views. If you have views that are too far afield of the opinions of the target audience, the target audience simply won't be able to deal with those opinions. We just can't have a free and open exchange of ideas because the people who might take part in that exchange aren't able to handle it. Most people have no interest in a free and open exchange of ideas with people who disagree with them, at least, not if they disagree with them too much."

    In effect, you are agreeing with me:

    Liberalism is dead. Most people don't actually believe in liberalism. We don't live in a liberal society.

    And that's why we need a national socialist white ethnostate.

    Hail victory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditio View Post
    Since I will undoubtedly be banned for this thread, I post this song in open defiance:

    The reason the topic is so appalling to most is because when most see the Nazi army with Hitler, they see nothing else besides gas chambers and mass graves.
    They can't see past it, and therefore they have little interest in the rest of the history of Germany.

    Likewise with the Civil War.
    They can't see past "slavery" and therefore it so fills their minds that they don't have room for any other knowledge of it.

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditio View Post


    And let's be honest, TOL: I'm sure that many of you cheered when Trump threatened to deny a license to news media which are critical of him, and when he threatened the NFL over their failure to fire protesting football players, didn't you?
    As usual, Trad, you have some very good points....mixed in there with just plain falsities. Which is your right, no doubt. You do assume too much about the motives of others, however.

    Case in point...

    This is "fake news" in your statement above. Trump was not threatening new outlets or the NFL. He was stating his opinion of what he'd like to see done. You want free speech, then give it to everyone....even that dastardly Trump.

    Hint....He didn't actually mean he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and get away with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditio View Post

    Even within the range of topics under consideration, most people are only interested in reinforcing their own ideological bubble.
    As are you, Trad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditio View Post
    Since I will undoubtedly be banned for this thread, I post this song in open defiance:

    Cool video. I love anything historical.

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