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Thread: To teach that people are born in sin is to teach against what Jesus taught

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Nope. You're doing the same thing with FAITH that you did with the word POWER. You're confusing the fruit of the Spirit with the faith that comes from hearing the word of God. What is faith?

    Hebrews 11:1
    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    How do we get it?

    Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Right here. How can they believe in Him unless the hear? And how can they hear without a PREACHER? There is nothing there about being empowered first.
    Read between the lines, sister. How can you hear UNLESS you have the power to do the act of HEARING?

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Nothing there about this hearing being the fruit of the Spirit.
    Of course. It's faith that is fruit, NOT the act of hearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    It's through the PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL that we hear and believe.
    No. It's through His power that flows through you, being part of His Body, that you are able to hear and believe.

    Again, your belief is cyclical: You cannot be empowered to hear the gospel unless you hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    The fruit of the Spirit is not saving faith that comes from hearing the Gospel. It has another purpose. It is a piece of the armour of God....our shield against all doubts....against the fiery darts of the enemy. That SHIELD OF FAITH is given to those who already believe.
    There is only one faith, Scripture says so. Eph 4:5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    Read between the lines, sister. How can you hear UNLESS you have the power to do the act of HEARING?
    Ah, it's the "reading between the lines" that will get you every time.

    That's where man's "wisdom" wreaks havoc on the word of God.


    Only read exactly what is written, and the TRUTH will come to the fore.
    Nothing of you and all of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    Both Arminians and Calvinists teach that people are born in sin. And to be born in sin is to be born lost, being born NOT in Christ.

    But Jesus taught otherwise as He explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son (Luke 15:1-24).

    Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd in the sheepfold.
    Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
    Before the son went lost, he was at home with his father.

    The sheep, coin and son did not start already lost. So with us. We started life NOT lost, and to be not lost is to be In Christ. But we all, like sheep, went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence, we are all enjoined to repent or perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

    The command to repent is the same command God made in the old testament (Ezek 18:30); the same command He now wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 17:30); the same command that Jesus issued in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Mat 24:14).

    By teaching that people are born in sin, many preachers teach against what Jesus taught and preach a gospel different from what Jesus preached.

    I don't think these preachers want to be accursed (Gal 1:6-9). Are you one of those preachers?
    I think the purpose of the parable was to show the sheep/coin/son is representative of humans being with their shepherd/owner/father prior to the fall.

    Then the fall happens.

    Then they are lost.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    There is only one faith, Scripture says so. Eph 4:5
    Perfect example. You did the same with the word power, which leaves you denying that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. You have yet to address that, because you insist on choosing one verse over another....not seeing they are both true. Christ is the power of God and the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation.

    You say there is only one faith, because you rip a verse out of context....ignoring what Paul was talking about. He was speaking of the one faith that saves. He wasn't speaking of the SHIELD OF FAITH (which you conveniently ignore), not was he talking about the fruit of the SPIRIT which only includes faith.

    Look here.....Why would Jesus rebuke Peter for having little faith if he was empowered with faith in order to believe?

    Matthew 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

    Notice how the same word faith is used in just this one verse. Live by faith, saved by grace through faith, all men given a measure of faith, little faith, increase my faith....

    Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Start a thread on faith, and you'll see that faith is much more than you can ever imagine by giving it only ONE meaning. Faith can be increased through prayer....your theory leaves no room for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Ah, it's the "reading between the lines" that will get you every time.

    That's where man's "wisdom" wreaks havoc on the word of God.


    Only read exactly what is written, and the TRUTH will come to the fore.
    Nothing of you and all of God.
    Which is what you need. You insist to have power even if NOT yet PLUGGED IN to Him Who is the ONLY source of power, Christ - the power of God (1 Cor 1:24).

    You don't believe Jesus when He said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5). Instead, you insist man can do SOMETHING - he can hear & believe, while still APART from Christ!

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Perfect example. You did the same with the word power, which leaves you denying that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.
    Excuse me, sister. Where in my posts did I deny "that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION"? Please show me that post, or you owe me an apology.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You have yet to address that, because you insist on choosing one verse over another....not seeing they are both true. Christ is the power of God and the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation.
    That's why I was asking you to show me my post where I denied "that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION".

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You say there is only one faith,
    I quoted the Bible, sister. NOT just me speaking; it's the Bible. Eph 4:5

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    because you rip a verse out of context....ignoring what Paul was talking about. He was speaking of the one faith that saves. He wasn't speaking of the SHIELD OF FAITH (which you conveniently ignore), not was he talking about the fruit of the SPIRIT which only includes faith.
    The Bible says there is only one faith, sister, and that faith IS fruit of the Spirit and IS our shield.

    I thought you were saying in an earlier post to "Only read exactly what is written, and the TRUTH will come to the fore."?

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Look here.....Why would Jesus rebuke Peter for having little faith if he was empowered with faith in order to believe?
    . In Greek, believing (pisteuo) is exercising faith (pistis). It is unfortunate that there is no English word "faithing". Hence, faith is needed in order for one to believe, just like you need a bike to go biking. Peter was rebuked for NOT believing despite having faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judson50 View Post
    I think the purpose of the parable was to show the sheep/coin/son is representative of humans being with their shepherd/owner/father prior to the fall.

    Then the fall happens.

    Then they are lost.
    NOT prior to the fall of Adam, BUT PRIOR to our own individual fall.

    That's why Scripture says "we all like sheep went astray" (Isa 53:6). One can't go astray UNLESS he is first NOT astray. It is "we all" who went astray; hence it is "we all" who started life NOT astray.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    NOT prior to the fall of Adam, BUT PRIOR to our own individual fall.

    That's why Scripture says "we all like sheep went astray" (Isa 53:6). One can't go astray UNLESS he is first NOT astray. It is "we all" who went astray; hence it is "we all" who started life NOT astray.
    Curious, why can’t the parable be speaking about mankind prior to the fall being “not astray” then mankind went astray?


    Parable Defined

    παραβολή

    parabolē

    par-ab-ol-ay'

    From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.


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    "Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.” - Isaiah 30:21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judson50 View Post
    Curious, why can’t the parable be speaking about mankind prior to the fall being “not astray” then mankind went astray?


    Parable Defined

    παραβολή

    parabolē

    par-ab-ol-ay'

    From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.
    PRIOR to the fall, there was only Adam, not mankind.

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    Hi Judson 50;

    Now my turn to ask, since you have seen my responses to you.

    Why can’t the parable be speaking about each one's individual fall being “not astray” then went astray?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    Which is what you need. You insist to have power even if NOT yet PLUGGED IN to Him Who is the ONLY source of power, Christ - the power of God (1 Cor 1:24).
    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    Excuse me, sister. Where in my posts did I deny "that the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION"? Please show me that post, or you owe me an apology.
    I don't owe you an apology because you have claimed over and over again that Christ is the ONLY Power of God. I gave you the verse that the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation, and you ignore it. I even showed you how the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST is the means through which that Power of Christ is administered to those who obey it (are begotten by it). You continue to preach the same thing you did before which is error.

    When you insert the word ONLY into a verse that does not contain the word ONLY, then you are inserting your understanding (reading between the lines) of what is clearly written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post

    You don't believe Jesus when He said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5). Instead, you insist man can do SOMETHING - he can hear & believe, while still APART from Christ!
    Jesus being the true vine is not speaking of our being created IN CHRIST via the preaching of the Gospel.

    Even in that text, He is not speaking of how one becomes a branch in the first place. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. You're comparing what Jesus said about the disciples...who were only attached because they were followers, and had affiliated themselves with Jesus. They were IN HIS COMPANY, and He was in their company. Totally different than what the RISEN LORD revealed to Paul. The Holy Spirit had not yet been sent, so none had been CREATED in Christ through the preaching of the GOSPEL OF GRACE. We see examples of those who were cut off here....

    John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

    John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I don't owe you an apology because you have claimed over and over again that Christ is the ONLY Power of God. I gave you the verse that the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation, and you ignore it. I even showed you how the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST is the means through which that Power of Christ is administered to those who obey it (are begotten by it). You continue to preach the same thing you did before which is error.
    Christ is the power of God, error? You're NOT aware that Christ is the Gospel? You have gospel without Christ, sister? The Gospel is the power of God. Christ is the power of
    God. Therefore, Christ is the Gospel.

    But it appears to me that what you are doing in this issue is to fit one verse against the other, just to get away from the biblical fact that man is UNABLE to do the acts of hearing and believing while NOT yet in Christ, the ONLY Source of Power.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    When you insert the word ONLY into a verse that does not contain the word ONLY, then you are inserting your understanding (reading between the lines) of what is clearly written.
    Christ is the Power of God, hence He is the ONLY Source of Power.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Why would He not be the ONLY Source of Power when all power had been given Him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Jesus being the true vine is not speaking of our being created IN CHRIST via the preaching of the Gospel.
    Jesus was CLEARLY saying that APART from Him man can do NOTHING. Period. But you REFUSE to believe the plain record of the Bible. If the disciples can do NOTHING when NOT in Him, how much more those who are NOT among them?

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Even in that text, He is not speaking of how one becomes a branch in the first place.
    And who said it is, sister?

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You're trying to compare apples and oranges.
    Nope. I just told you that Jesus said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. But you REFUSE to believe what Jesus said.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You're comparing what Jesus said about the disciples...who were only attached because they were followers, and had affiliated themselves with Jesus. They were IN HIS COMPANY, and He was in their company. Totally different than what the RISEN LORD revealed to Paul.
    Sister, oh my sister. You seem to have forgotten that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8). He was with His disciples. He is with us. What's the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    The Holy Spirit had not yet been sent, so none had been CREATED in Christ through the preaching of the GOSPEL OF GRACE. We see examples of those who were cut off here....
    Gospel of grace. The gospel and grace are none other than Christ our Lord & Savior.

    When was grace given to us, sister? If you can answer this with Scripture, then you have given the biblical answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    Christ is the power of God, error? You're NOT aware that Christ is the Gospel? You have gospel without Christ, sister? The Gospel is the power of God. Christ is the power of
    God. Therefore, Christ is the Gospel.
    Christ is the Gospel?

    No, that is another example of your reading something into the word of God.

    But it appears to me that what you are doing in this issue is to fit one verse against the other, just to get away from the biblical fact that man is UNABLE to do the acts of hearing and believing while NOT yet in Christ, the ONLY Source of Power.
    No, God uses the preaching of the Gospel to save men from their sins. They hear and believe. They don't believe and then hear.

    Christ is the Power of God, hence He is the ONLY Source of Power.
    The Gospel is the power of God UNTO SALVATION. It's the preaching of the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our believing it that saves us.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Why would He not be the ONLY Source of Power when all power had been given Him?
    That power is administered through the preaching of the Gospel.

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