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Thread: To teach that people are born in sin is to teach against what Jesus taught

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    When do you think are people created IN HIM as new creatures?
    When we believe, and are begotten by the Gospel.

    Eph. 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    When we believe, and are begotten by the Gospel.

    Eph. 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    But how can you have the power to believe UNLESS you are first IN Christ, the ONLY Source of power, being the power of God?

    KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    But how can you have the power to believe UNLESS you are first IN Christ, the ONLY Source of power, being the power of God?

    KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    Christ's POWER is dispensed through the GOSPEL, which is the power of God unto salvation. It's Christ's power placed IN THE GOSPEL, itself. Clearly, the Gospel is the means the Lord uses for us to be saved and created IN HIM.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Notice earlier in the same chapter you quoted....It's the GOSPEL (the preaching of the cross) which is the POWER OF GOD. The GOSPEL IS how BOTH THE POWER AND THE WISDOM of Christ is dispensed to the one who believes.

    1 Cor. 1:17-18 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

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    So what comes first, the empowering or the act of believing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    So what comes first, the empowering or the act of believing?
    That question doesn't really make any sense to me.

    We are not "empowered" to do anything. But the POWER in the Gospel is what persuaded us to believe.

    Then we were sealed with the Holy Spirit.... after we heard and believed the Gospel.

    Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


    The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Which tells us that we believe, and are saved after we hear the Gospel. We are begotten (given life) when we believe the Gospel.

    1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

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    I can't understand why you refuse to answer a simple question.

    Please see this post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    I can't understand why you refuse to answer a simple question.

    Please see this post.
    Excuse me? How many threads are you going to start, and how many times do I have to give you the answer before you actually address what I've posted? You can ask the same question again and again, and I can answer it over and over, but, at some point, you'll simply have to try and have a normal discussion. Otherwise...you're just talking to yourself, and then you can give yourself whatever answer suits your fancy. Which, apparently is the unscriptural notion of being "plugged into Christ".

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    glorydaz,

    What, to you, is insensible in the question, "Which comes first, the empowering or the act of believing"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Excuse me? How many threads are you going to start, and how many times do I have to give you the answer before you actually address what I've posted? You can ask the same question again and again, and I can answer it over and over, but, at some point, you'll simply have to try and have a normal discussion. Otherwise...you're just talking to yourself, and then you can give yourself whatever answer suits your fancy. Which, apparently is the unscriptural notion of being "plugged into Christ".
    Oh, excuse me ,too. I have addressed the issue in your posts that are summarized in " UNLESS one believes, he cannot be in Christ". That is why I asked "Which comes first, the empowering or the act of believing?".

    But it seemed the question is too difficult, you refuse to answer the question with the alibi that it does not make any sense to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    That question doesn't really make any sense to me.

    We are not "empowered" to do anything. But the POWER in the Gospel is what persuaded us to believe.

    Then we were sealed with the Holy Spirit.... after we heard and believed the Gospel.

    Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


    The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Which tells us that we believe, and are saved after we hear the Gospel. We are begotten (given life) when we believe the Gospel.

    1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    Oh, excuse me ,too. I have addressed the issue in your posts that are summarized in " UNLESS one believes, he cannot be in Christ". That is why I asked "Which comes first, the empowering or the act of believing?".

    But it seemed the question is too difficult, you refuse to answer the question with the alibi that it does not make any sense to you.
    Looks to me like I answered your question just fine. You just don't like the fact that we are not empowered to believe. We are not empowered to do anything. We believe, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us, and we trust in the power of God for everything, from that time forward. The power is not ours, it is God's and His word.

    Try reading what I said after I dissed your question....which requires, of course, you ditch the pride and open your ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Looks to me like I answered your question just fine. You just don't like the fact that we are not empowered to believe. We are not empowered to do anything. We believe, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us, and we trust in the power of God for everything, from that time forward. The power is not ours, it is God's and His word.

    Try reading what I said after I dissed your question....which requires, of course, you ditch the pride and open your ears.
    No reason for ad hominems, glory daz.

    You are saying we are not EMPOWERED to believe. From what verse did you get that from the Bible?

    Would Christ ask people to repent and believe unless they were first EMPOWERED?

    Mark 1:14-15 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

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    In Greek, "believing" (pisteuo) is exercising faith (pistis).

    So unless one has faith to exercise, he cannot believe. And faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) only those in Christ can bear (John 15:4, 5).

    Clearly then, from Scriptures, unless one is first in Christ, he cannot have faith, and therefore POWERLESS to do the act of believing.

    But you teach the opposite. Believe first, then one can be in Christ. Cart before the horse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    No reason for ad hominems, glory daz.

    You are saying we are not EMPOWERED to believe. From what verse did you get that from the Bible?

    Would Christ ask people to repent and believe unless they were first EMPOWERED?

    Mark 1:14-15 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
    I guess you could say God gave us a brain and the ability to use it.

    So, here's an example for you. I look outside and see drops of water coming from the sky. I go outside, and sure enough, I see it's raining. I hear the pitter patter on the roof. I feel the moisture. And, I believe in my heart of hearts it's raining. Was I empowered to believe that? You tell me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    In Greek, "believing" (pisteuo) is exercising faith (pistis).

    So unless one has faith to exercise, he cannot believe. And faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) only those in Christ can bear (John 15:4, 5).

    Clearly then, from Scriptures, unless one is first in Christ, he cannot have faith, and therefore POWERLESS to do the act of believing.

    But you teach the opposite. Believe first, then one can be in Christ. Cart before the horse.
    Nope. You're doing the same thing with FAITH that you did with the word POWER. You're confusing the fruit of the Spirit with the faith that comes from hearing the word of God. What is faith?

    Hebrews 11:1
    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    How do we get it?

    Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Right here. How can they believe in Him unless the hear? And how can they hear without a PREACHER? There is nothing there about being empowered first. Nothing there about this hearing being the fruit of the Spirit. It's through the PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL that we hear and believe.

    Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    The fruit of the Spirit is not saving faith that comes from hearing the Gospel. It has another purpose. It is a piece of the armour of God....our shield against all doubts....against the fiery darts of the enemy. That SHIELD OF FAITH is given to those who already believe.

    Eph. 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I guess you could say God gave us a brain and the ability to use it.

    So, here's an example for you. I look outside and see drops of water coming from the sky. I go outside, and sure enough, I see it's raining. I hear the pitter patter on the roof. I feel the moisture. And, I believe in my heart of hearts it's raining. Was I empowered to believe that? You tell me.
    Let us. instead, allow Scripture to tell you:

    KJV Acts 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;

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