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Thread: Satanic Temple Wants Followers to Force Christian Bakers to Make a Cake to ‘Honor...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
    This is an interesting, complex question. It would seem it could be well argued a private business, exercising their religious conscience, is protected in the Constitution, and that, to try and force anybody to violate the scripture of any established religion they believe is a violation of their Constitutional right of free exercise. Likewise, to try and force free exercise on somebody's private premise that doesn't want to be, in some way, actually involved in that exercise would be a violation of their right to not have religion forced upon them. For instance, I think it's a violation to force children to pray in school, despite my being a Christian, if we are to consider U.S. law. It must be emphasized that what does or does not legally stand is not a matter of the Bible governing, rather the laws of the nation. You could believe, in all good conscience, at least your own misguided conscience, that the U.S. should be a theocracy, but you would have no legal standing in this. (The question is always whose theology, expecting corrupt and narcissistic man could possibly run a theocracy.) Would further state God is not interested in forced prayers, that are not in a spirit of truth, those of you that somehow think the Lord Jesus has ever wanted any forced homage from the unrepentant, at least in this age of grace. It would also be degenerate hypocrisy for the U.S. government to persecute Christians, given the Western style nation largely came about, in its inception, due to Christians seeking to escape the persecutions in Europe. Did you know it was Christians who wanted no established religion, not atheists, not Satanists, this to avoid the persecutions of Europe? The atheists or Satanists would like to repudiate or deny this Christian heritage, but there would, in fact, be no Bill of Rights, if it were not for Rhode Island and Virginia Baptists demanding no government mucking in religion or restricting free exercise of Christianity, before they would endorse the Constitution. This is historic fact, and you may as well suck it up. Like it or lump it, there was a Christian design process at work in the founding of the United States. It's another matter if the U.S. has been Christian, and it's not my intent to go there, anyway, in this matter of cakes.

    Of course, this would only apply to a private premise, not a government entity, which cannot be involved in establishing any religion. In other words, if the government baked cakes, it would have to bake Christian and Satanist cakes, because the government is not allowed to establish religious edicts, though it would be questionable whether the government would be allowed to create cakes with religious statements, in the first place. As precedents stand, I believe a government bakery would be precluded from putting any religious message on a cake, of any kind, would have to deny all religious cakes. Ironic how the government, that ruled against the Christian baker in the homo case, would turn down, discriminate against, people who wanted Christian cakes, if it had a cake shop? Just a weird thought. Bottom line, though, people need to realize that it's American law that will govern in this instance, not the Bible, and, throughout history, the conscience and faith of people has been known to be challenged by governments. But I believe a Christian baker's religious free exercise, civil rights, are violated, to be forced to do anything against their conscience, also a Muslim baker, if they refused to bake a Christian cake, and that it's up to the unregenerate public to find a baker that doesn't care, or make their own devil cake, then. To say anything different is to make a ludicrous claim that religious faith has no validity outside of church walls, when it's simply a fact that exercise of faith, in good conscience, is a total lifestyle, that moral precepts of religious faith, obviously, go with the person, not the confines of any building.

    So, I believe somebody coming into a private premise, dwelling or business, and trying to force sin upon them as their scripture dictates, should have to take a hike, find a sinful business person to cater to their sin. That would be the next ten bakers they could go to, as things stand, but I see it as a clear violation of free exercise to force anybody to bake a cake of sin, or in any way punish them for refusing. In other words, this is a case of violation of Constitutionally guaranteed right of free exercise, not a theological debate matter, Christian theology having nothing to do with it, where the law is concerned, a law which is to respect the exercise of faith in good conscience, period, that the Constitution and free exercise govern in this case.

    To say it’s discrimination for a private entity to have any exclusive rules, then businesses should have no dress codes, no speech codes, no conduct codes, whatsoever, in matters protected: if bakers can’t refuse a Satan cake, then office buildings shouldn’t be allowed to exclude a host of legally protected behaviors, lest they discriminate. Do you know there are people who believe smoking marijuana is a religious rite? I say, if you can’t exclude a Satan cake, you can’t exclude smoking pot in the break room, since the precedent would be everybody should have free exercise, in anybody else’s house. If you can’t refuse that Satan cake, a lot of law needs to be overturned, lest we discriminate. It would also be the case Christian churches should be forced to read from the Quran, maybe sacrifice some cakes to the Queen of Heaven, play heavy metal music, since nothing is excluded in the law on a private premise, right, lest we discriminate? Muslims mosques forced to read from John 1? For all I know, nudity may be a religion to some, hence a need to overturn laws mandating clothing at bakeries, isn’t that so? Shouldn’t that occult book store be forced to sell Bibles, also? Metallica forced to sing Amazing Grace?

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    Nice picture, which my comment or the topic have nothing to do with, that is discrimination based upon race. It's trollish and juvenile responses like this, further evidenced by a total lack of any intelligent dialog as to what your point is, vis a vis the actual subject matter of religious free exercise, that make message boards such a wasteland. In other words, your disputing spirit which, as usual, does not actually relate to the topic or comments made was not even worth this reply. Discrimination based upon race is a different topic, Einstein. Troll somebody else, likewise vacuous, you don't, quite simply, bore, i.e., some other bore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
    Nice picture, which my comment or the topic have nothing to do with, that is discrimination based upon race. It's trollish and juvenile responses like this, further evidenced by a total lack of any intelligent dialog as to what your point is, vis a vis the actual subject matter of religious free exercise, that make message boards such a wasteland. In other words, your disputing spirit which, as usual, does not actually relate to the topic or comments made was not even worth this reply. Discrimination based upon race is a different topic, Einstein. Troll somebody else, likewise vacuous, you don't, quite simply, bore, i.e., some other bore.
    The picture has everything to do with your post and the topic at hand.

    You made an impassioned speech about the right of the business owner's right to refuse service based on the right to free exercise of reliigon. And I provided a picture of a young shopkeeper exercising that same right to free exercise of religion. The fact that this shopkeeper's religious views call on him to refuse service to a differnt set of people than your much lamented baker has no baring on the right of that shopkeeper to chose who he does and does not serve. To say otherwise would be to say that it isn't about a bussiness owner's right to free exercise of theor religion but rather it is about the desire to misuse religion as a justificaiton for prejucie and discrimination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDante View Post
    The picture has everything to do with your post and the topic at hand.

    You made an impassioned speech about the right of the business owner's right to refuse service based on the right to free exercise of reliigon. And I provided a picture of a young shopkeeper exercising that same right to free exercise of religion. The fact that this shopkeeper's religious views call on him to refuse service to a differnt set of people than your much lamented baker has no baring on the right of that shopkeeper to chose who he does and does not serve. To say otherwise would be to say that it isn't about a bussiness owner's right to free exercise of theor religion but rather it is about the desire to misuse religion as a justificaiton for prejucie and discrimination.
    No it doesnt, since this isnt about being served, its about being served specific items.

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    No it doesnt, since this isnt about being served, its about being served specific items.
    Like everything in the store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDante View Post
    Like everything in the store.
    Wedding cakes, are specialty created items, they arent just sitting in the store. They also come with catering which is compelled speech to attend a wedding.

    You get it, pretend you don't though.

    Do you also think cake owners should make nudie cakes, cause some refuse them also as well as other specialty cakes.

    (Hint, creation, and speech)

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Wedding cakes, are specialty created items, they arent just sitting in the store. They also come with catering which is compelled speech to attend a wedding.

    You get it, pretend you don't though.

    Do you also think cake owners should make nudie cakes, cause some refuse them also as well as other specialty cakes.

    (Hint, creation, and speech)
    There is also a fundamental matter of this being a case of free exercise, as you well point out even forced speech, repugnant to the somebody's good conscience to exercise their faith, as opposed to equal protection of citizens, two entirely different Constitutional subjects, of no relationship. Then, this troll launches into how bigotry is somebody's religion, now I suppose we conflate free exercise with made up, private religions, to skirt the law, as a legal argument (only on a message board), which no Christian is doing? Then there are tons of legal precedents that involve how private institutions are allowed to operate, by a host of various rules and standards customers, clients or members must adhere to. This is as if not to mention that preservation of somebody's First Amendment rights should be superseded by somebody's desire to eat homo or Satan cake?! Can we get any more trite? Why don't we simply burn the Constitution, get it over with?

    Funny how, always at the bottom line, is something anti-Christian, from twisting scripture among false Christians, to twisting law into something make believe. Bottom line, what can you say? Some people are just very ignorant and make ridiculous arguments there's, equally, no sense in responding to, they rise to such a level of ignorance or falsity. And notice there was no response to how persecuting the Christian in free exercise could, legally, work both ways, bring the hammer down on the Satanists or anybody refusing to exercise for Christians. (Leave it up to Satanists to shoots themselves in the foot.)

    It's a good and important subject you presented, and interesting, but one that will not be properly discussed here. You would at least think some of the liberal apologists could come up with something based in reality, actually respond to what was said. Don't hold your breath. You can only shake your head and wonder why you bothered to post anything, at all.

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    I would take the order but simply not make the cake and when they call to collect said cake I would apologise that it was not made and ask if they would like to re-order said cake and if they say yes I would repeat this process until they give up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Wedding cakes, are specialty created items, they arent just sitting in the store. They also come with catering which is compelled speech to attend a wedding.
    Wedding cakes are part of the recepiton not the wedding. and may be deleivered or picked up but that is done well before teh reception.

    You get it, pretend you don't though.

    Do you also think cake owners should make nudie cakes, cause some refuse them also as well as other specialty cakes.

    (Hint, creation, and speech)
    Cake owners?

    Assuming you meant bakers - if a baker baked "nudie cakes" (whatever those are) the beaker doesn't get to refuse to sell those nudie cakes to black people even if that baker is holding a bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
    There is also a fundamental matter of this being a case of free exercise, as you well point out even forced speech, repugnant to the somebody's good conscience to exercise their faith, as opposed to equal protection of citizens, two entirely different Constitutional subjects, of no relationship. Then, this troll launches into how bigotry is somebody's religion, now I suppose we conflate free exercise with made up, private religions, to skirt the law, as a legal argument (only on a message board), which no Christian is doing? Then there are tons of legal precedents that involve how private institutions are allowed to operate, by a host of various rules and standards customers, clients or members must adhere to. This is as if not to mention that preservation of somebody's First Amendment rights should be superseded by somebody's desire to eat homo or Satan cake?! Can we get any more trite? Why don't we simply burn the Constitution, get it over with?

    And this young shopkeep is still saying his positon on refusing serves is based on his good conscience to exercise his faith. Are his first amendment right sto be ignored?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    I would take the order but simply not make the cake and when they call to collect said cake I would apologise that it was not made and ask if they would like to re-order said cake and if they say yes I would repeat this process until they give up.
    Its a good thing false witness isn't a sin or anyting.


    i hope you will also not complain when sued for breach of contract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDante View Post
    Its a good thing false witness isn't a sin or anyting.


    i hope you will also not complain when sued for breach of contract.
    No one can sue for incompetence when compensation is offer. Poor service happens all the time. And as Jesus said:

    Matthew 10:16
    "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    No one can sue for incompetence when compensation is offer. Poor service happens all the time.
    Breech of contract. Look it up


    And as Jesus said:

    Matthew 10:16
    "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

    an apt description of your choice to lie

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDante View Post
    Breech of contract. Look it up

    an apt description of your choice to lie
    Buying a cake does not usually involve a written contract, but only a non-verbal understanding. While my suggestion may seem somewhat ridiculous it is actually the lessor of the two evils. And no one would get sued as there is no evidence of a breach of contract only a record of poor service which would be off set by the business offering to make the cake for free, (which of course is then not made). I bet this has been done already by other bakers etc and is never heard of because of the logic I am describing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WatchmanOnTheWall View Post
    Buying a cake does not usually involve a written contract, but only a non-verbal understanding.
    You've never actually purchased a wedding cake before have you.


    While my suggestion may seem somewhat ridiculous it is actually the lessor of the two evils.
    Treating one's customer honestly and with curtosy (luke 6:31 anyone?)is, in yoru opinion, evil.

    I think we are done here.

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