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Thread: What is the Gospel?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    The Gospel clearly defined.
    Evangel.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    PS Messiah is the Message and the Messenger. Evangel and Evangelist.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  3. #93
    Over 3000 post club Sonnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Evangel.
    OK.

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    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    On the TOL Statement of Faith page it says:

    For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried.

    I am wondering who 'our' are (and asked as much on the thread).

    Of course, it does means believers (since it's a statement of faith) - but would TOL admin be willing to say if it includes all people in its provision?
    Look, I'm a Calvinist. "All" means all. "All who come to the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:21 Romans 10:13 If you want, reject Calvinism, don't reject God!!!

    You have no permission from me to do so.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Look, I'm a Calvinist. "All" means all. "All who come to the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:21 Romans 10:13 If you want, reject Calvinism, don't reject God!!!

    You have no permission from me to do so.
    Amen... God... Alone... and this is why you forever remain... Awesome!

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    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    .

    You're quite okay with a God whom you think chooses whomever He wishes to save and passes by the rest? How is this harmonised with the love of God expressed in 1 John 4?
    1) He is not a Calvinist but certainly expresses a lot of similar doctrine. 2) Not all Calvinists are the same, and it sounds like some have done a number on you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    On the TOL Statement of Faith page it says:

    For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried.

    I am wondering who 'our' are (and asked as much on the thread).

    Of course, it does means believers (since it's a statement of faith) - but would TOL admin be willing to say if it includes all people in its provision?
    3) Yes, Knight (admin) and most if not all of TOL staff believe "All" applies to everyone ("all people").
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    1) He is not a Calvinist but certainly expresses a lot of similar doctrine. 2) Not all Calvinists are the same, and it sounds like some have done a number on you.
    3) Yes, Knight (admin) and most if not all of TOL staff believe "All" applies to everyone ("all people").
    And it is now that I call @1Mind1Spirit , @patrick jane , @Lon and all others with compassionate heart...

    I’m not demanding this from any of you... but it’s coming from me and you are all welcome to do likewise...

    @Sonnet ... We Love you and want to spend eternity with you... Jesus Christ wants this even more... I apologize from the bottom of my soul for all of my misrepresentation of Jesus Christ and our over 30,000 variations... but there is still only ONE Jesus Christ... and He Died And Rose to display His Love for you...

    My brother... Sonnet... you are running out of reasons to resist His Love. He won’t limit you, but instead bring out even more depth to who you are... as you learn from HIM... Who He is...

    I pray that this finds you well and explains that we will never speak all the right words or get it 100 percent right... but He is worth your faith and He will do the rest for you. He will answer your questions... He is worth your returned Love...

    Brother... will you let Him in? Do you surrender...? Do you believe and ask Him to help you with your unbelief... that is His Good News and it is yours the grasp!

    All my Love to you Sonnet...

    PW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    And it is now that I call @1Mind1Spirit , @patrick jane , @Lon and all others with compassionate heart...

    I’m not demanding this from any of you... but it’s coming from me and you are all welcome to do likewise...

    @Sonnet ... We Love you and want to spend eternity with you... Jesus Christ wants this even more... I apologize from the bottom of my soul for all of my misrepresentation of Jesus Christ and our over 30,000 variations... but there is still only ONE Jesus Christ... and He Died And Rose to display His Love for you...

    My brother... Sonnet... you are running out of reasons to resist His Love. He won’t limit you, but instead bring out even more depth to who you are... as you learn from HIM... Who He is...

    I pray that this finds you well and explains that we will never speak all the right words or get it 100 percent right... but He is worth your faith and He will do the rest for you. He will answer your questions... He is worth your returned Love...

    Brother... will you let Him in? Do you surrender...? Do you believe and ask Him to help you with your unbelief... that is His Good News and it is yours the grasp!

    All my Love to you Sonnet...

    PW
    I'll drink tuh that.

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  14. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    So I wouldn't be out of line in saying that two different Gospels are preached by Christians (albeit that the Calvinist one has to be extracted under interrogation)?

    Gospel 1:
    Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried and was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...

    Gospel 2:
    The above with the proviso that 'our' are the elect and you will only believe if God predetermined that you would (justification for such choice being founded on the fact that all men are so totally depraved that none would ever choose God anyway - so the Good News is that at least He chose some).
    Sonnet;

    There are not 2 gospels, just 2 points of view of the same gospel and both are correct within their individual scope.

    There is the human, earthly, time-bounded view which everyday life teaches us to abide by. We live life linearly and our thinking is finite in scope. To us everything has a beginning and an end. As the Bible is, to a great extent, historical narrative, this type of presentation is natural and normal for us. From this viewpoint it is absolutely true that every soul has opportunity (even responsibility) to believe and be saved. These truths are favoured with Arminian theology.

    There is also the heavenly, God's eye view of redemption. It is not restricted by linear time, is infinite in scope, and involves the qualities that God describes about Himself that are beyond our full comprehension: omnipotence, omnipresence, and especially omniscience and sovereignty. God did not have a beginning nor will He have an end. That God is sovereign in all matters of redemption as first instigator of salvation in the sinner's life is taught everywhere. These truths are favoured by Calvinists.

    These two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive, only incomplete if not taken together.

    In the instance of Limited Atonement, for example, because God is God, and forgiveness is the spiritual act of a God who is Spirit, the blood of Jesus is applied only by Him and without reference to time. Mercy is the causation. How can we then say that God must wait upon an individual's timeline performance for this to occur? Regardless of who we think is responsible for salvation, man or God, or both, because time is not involved, Jesus' blood will never be applied to those who are unsaved and will always be applied to those who are. From His perspective Jesus died for His own whom He foreknew.

    But we are not omniscient and are told to carry the Gospel of mercy to the ends of the earth telling everyone they must be saved.
    Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Affleck View Post
    Sonnet;

    There are not 2 gospels, just 2 points of view of the same gospel and both are correct within their individual scope.

    There is the human, earthly, time-bounded view which everyday life teaches us to abide by. We live life linearly and our thinking is finite in scope. To us everything has a beginning and an end. As the Bible is, to a great extent, historical narrative, this type of presentation is natural and normal for us. From this viewpoint it is absolutely true that every soul has opportunity (even responsibility) to believe and be saved. These truths are favoured with Arminian theology.

    There is also the heavenly, God's eye view of redemption. It is not restricted by linear time, is infinite in scope, and involves the qualities that God describes about Himself that are beyond our full comprehension: omnipotence, omnipresence, and especially omniscience and sovereignty. God did not have a beginning nor will He have an end. That God is sovereign in all matters of redemption as first instigator of salvation in the sinner's life is taught everywhere. These truths are favoured by Calvinists.

    These two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive, only incomplete if not taken together.

    In the instance of Limited Atonement, for example, because God is God, and forgiveness is the spiritual act of a God who is Spirit, the blood of Jesus is applied only by Him and without reference to time. Mercy is the causation. How can we then say that God must wait upon an individual's timeline performance for this to occur? Regardless of who we think is responsible for salvation, man or God, or both, because time is not involved, Jesus' blood will never be applied to those who are unsaved and will always be applied to those who are. From His perspective Jesus died for His own whom He foreknew.

    But we are not omniscient and are told to carry the Gospel of mercy to the ends of the earth telling everyone they must be saved.
    Thanks.

    As far as I am aware, the Calvinist position is that God had every right to choose who would have eternal life because of man's total depravity. This depravity, they argue, is so complete that no man would ever choose God. So the Good News is that He gracefully chose some.

    "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."
    (Calvin's 'Institutes')

    The Heidelberg Catechism relating total depravity to God's choice of regeneration:

    "Are we then so corrupt that we are wholly incapable of doing any good, and inclined to all wickedness?
    Indeed we are; except we are regenerated by the Spirit of God."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    And it is now that I call @1Mind1Spirit , @patrick jane , @Lon and all others with compassionate heart...

    I’m not demanding this from any of you... but it’s coming from me and you are all welcome to do likewise...

    @Sonnet ... We Love you and want to spend eternity with you... Jesus Christ wants this even more... I apologize from the bottom of my soul for all of my misrepresentation of Jesus Christ and our over 30,000 variations... but there is still only ONE Jesus Christ... and He Died And Rose to display His Love for you...

    My brother... Sonnet... you are running out of reasons to resist His Love. He won’t limit you, but instead bring out even more depth to who you are... as you learn from HIM... Who He is...

    I pray that this finds you well and explains that we will never speak all the right words or get it 100 percent right... but He is worth your faith and He will do the rest for you. He will answer your questions... He is worth your returned Love...

    Brother... will you let Him in? Do you surrender...? Do you believe and ask Him to help you with your unbelief... that is His Good News and it is yours the grasp!

    All my Love to you Sonnet...

    PW
    I appreciate this my friend but it seems to me that Calvinists are justified in their reasoning - which, after all, is from scripture itself. Romans 9, 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4,5 and elsewhere remain difficult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
    I'll drink tuh that.
    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    1) He is not a Calvinist but certainly expresses a lot of similar doctrine. 2) Not all Calvinists are the same, and it sounds like some have done a number on you.
    Hi Lon - good to speak again...and on the same subject as many months back

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5107603

    3) Yes, Knight (admin) and most if not all of TOL staff believe "All" applies to everyone ("all people").
    Then is it wise to allow those that argue that Christ did not provide for all to speak as accepted Christians - and thus contradicting the Gospel? - to the point where the is no Gospel?

  19. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnet View Post
    Thanks.This depravity, they argue, is so complete that no man would ever choose God.
    We've been down this road many times in the past. Actually, we Calvinist do not argue, we simply affirm what Scripture teaches about the dire state of all those in Adam.

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...07#post4559007

    And by the way:

    Despite the claim of others, there is but one Gospel. In a fast food society that likes just snippets it is wrong to assume that but the concise summary of the Gospel in 1 Cor 15 is the only time that Paul calls something "the Gospel". For example, the entire letter of Romans is repeatedly referred to by Paul as "my Gospel".

    There may be a shorthand way of saying certain things to people who already understand something, but there are no shortcuts by just saying a minimal number of words to a listener and assuming that the person listening has understood the Gospel.

    Beloved, sentences in the scriptures are not incantations. We are called to press these things into the understanding of our hearers and explain and argue for certain ideas (1 Cor. 10:5). Yes, we may start out with something very basic, as in 1 Cor 15, but we will have to give further explanations or corrections of some matters if a person is inferring something improperly.

    For example, Paul's Romans Road to Salvation, Romans 3:23; 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13, is steeped in unstated presuppositions that will require explanation to the typical non-believer.

    In another related example, seriously consider what must be presupposed in the concise summary statement of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. For example, "sins" presupposes a moral inability; "our" presupposes a marking out of persons, "died for" presupposes particularization of persons; "rose again" presupposes a calling that is effective and provides utmost perseverance.

    If a person goes off and develops a poor understanding which undermines the basic theological framework above, he or she denies the very underlying basis of the Gospel—those presuppositions left unexplained by using Gospel shorthanded expressions—and thereby weakens one's own faith.

    At the end of the day, people need to stop and consider how one could accurately present any Gospel that denies...

    (1) man's wholesale rebellion in sin from birth,
    (2) the right of God the Father to punish men for their sin,
    (3) God the Father's sending of His son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnated as fully God and fully man, out of His mere grace and not for anything men deserved,
    (4) Our Lord's sacrifice on a cross for sin, satisfying the wrath of God the Father for only the ones so given to Our Lord (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9),
    (5) Our Lord saving to the uttermost all who are efficaciously drawn near by God the Holy Spirit,
    (6) God the Father loving His chosen before they loved Him,
    (7) the resurrection of Our Lord, or
    (8) even the power of the Gospel to be the source of life.

    The Gospel is more than just a sentence or two lifted from the full counsel of Scripture. Rather, as did Paul, the message of the Gospel requires us to take every word captive for the glory of God.

    AMR
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  21. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    We've been down this road many times in the past. Actually, we Calvinist do not argue, we simply affirm what Scripture teaches about the dire state of all those in Adam.

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...07#post4559007

    And by the way:

    Despite the claim of others, there is but one Gospel. In a fast food society that likes just snippets it is wrong to assume that but the concise summary of the Gospel in 1 Cor 15 is the only time that Paul calls something "the Gospel". For example, the entire letter of Romans is repeatedly referred to by Paul as "my Gospel".

    There may be a shorthand way of saying certain things to people who already understand something, but there are no shortcuts by just saying a minimal number of words to a listener and assuming that the person listening has understood the Gospel.

    Beloved, sentences in the scriptures are not incantations. We are called to press these things into the understanding of our hearers and explain and argue for certain ideas (1 Cor. 10:5). Yes, we may start out with something very basic, as in 1 Cor 15, but we will have to give further explanations or corrections of some matters if a person is inferring something improperly.

    For example, Paul's Romans Road to Salvation, Romans 3:23; 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13, is steeped in unstated presuppositions that will require explanation to the typical non-believer.

    In another related example, seriously consider what must be presupposed in the concise summary statement of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. For example, "sins" presupposes a moral inability; "our" presupposes a marking out of persons, "died for" presupposes particularization of persons; "rose again" presupposes a calling that is effective and provides utmost perseverance.

    If a person goes off and develops a poor understanding which undermines the basic theological framework above, he or she denies the very underlying basis of the Gospel—those presuppositions left unexplained by using Gospel shorthanded expressions—and thereby weakens one's own faith.

    At the end of the day, people need to stop and consider how one could accurately present any Gospel that denies...

    (1) man's wholesale rebellion in sin from birth,
    (2) the right of God the Father to punish men for their sin,
    (3) God the Father's sending of His son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnated as fully God and fully man, out of His mere grace and not for anything men deserved,
    (4) Our Lord's sacrifice on a cross for sin, satisfying the wrath of God the Father for only the ones so given to Our Lord (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9),
    (5) Our Lord saving to the uttermost all who are efficaciously drawn near by God the Holy Spirit,
    (6) God the Father loving His chosen before they loved Him,
    (7) the resurrection of Our Lord, or
    (8) even the power of the Gospel to be the source of life.

    The Gospel is more than just a sentence or two lifted from the full counsel of Scripture. Rather, as did Paul, the message of the Gospel requires us to take every word captive for the glory of God.

    AMR
    Thanks AMR - indeed we touched on this before...

    Just reading through your links...

    Meantime - is there anything about this post that needs correcting?

    (edit: I should have explicitly said: ie my response regarding the Calvinist position on election, regeneration and depravity).
    Last edited by Sonnet; October 2nd, 2017 at 02:42 AM.

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