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Thread: "And You Are Complete in Jesus Christ" Colossians 2:10.

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    Over 4000 post club Epoisses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    False Teaching. Those Christ obeyed for shall be made righteous Rom 5:19!
    Christ died for everyone, some believe and some don't. Calvinism is an elaborate system of unbelief in Christ as the savior of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    You quote scripture without understanding because you are void of the Holy Spirit.

    "So by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" Romans 5:19. Means that Jesus has provided salvation for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9. So that, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

    You need to call on Christ to save you.
    You deny that Christ death alone saved thwm He died for. That is nor Faith in Christ.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    You deny that Christ death alone saved thwm He died for. That is nor Faith in Christ.

    Poor blind fool does not believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world.

    "And he is a propitiation for our sin: and not ours only, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

    Poor blind fool is now without an excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Maybe that particular aspect of Calvinism is correct, in that, one day you read the Bible or heard the word and nothing happened, you weren't convinced but then one day you heard or read, and something was different and you believed. Perhaps God did a work in you that caused you to seek Him and believe, how does that mean that you had no choice? How can you keep from boasting of being chosen over your neighbor?
    The fact that God is the One granting the faith that comes from regeneration. Upon regeneration, you are made willing to believe and cannot not believe, for you genuinely want to believe. Prior to that regeneration, you were morally incapable of wanting to believe (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14), for you genuinely hated God with every breath you drew. So, yes, you had a choice, immediately/coincidentally upon regeneration. You choose according to what you are most inclined. Upon being regenerated your inclinations are wholly Godward, and you will choose to believe. God is not believing for you. You are. God granted this faith to you.

    Yes, you may say to your neighbor, "God chose me." That is not a boast, but a factual statement, unless your motives behind such a statement are sinful pride. When your neighbor asks "Why you?" tell him "I have no idea, for it was certainly not for anything He saw in me that would give Him cause to choose me. I merited only judgment, not His mercy."

    Then when he asks, "How can I get what you have got?" remind him that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Then leave the outcomes to the Lord rather than trying to figure out how is it that some are saved and some are not (Deut. 29:29).

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The fact that God is the One granting the faith that comes from regeneration. Upon regeneration, you are made willing to believe and cannot not believe, for you genuinely want to believe. Prior to that regeneration, you were morally incapable of wanting to believe (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14), for you genuinely hated God with every breath you drew. So, yes, you had a choice, immediately/coincidentally upon regeneration. You choose according to what you are most inclined. Upon being regenerated your inclinations are wholly Godward, and you will choose to believe. God is not believing for you. You are. God granted this faith to you.

    Yes, you may say to your neighbor, "God chose me." That is not a boast, but a factual statement, unless your motives behind such a statement are sinful pride. When your neighbor asks "Why you?" tell him "I have no idea, for it was certainly not for anything He saw in me that would give Him cause to choose me. I merited only judgment, not His mercy."

    Then when he asks, "How can I get what you have got?" remind him that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Then leave the outcomes to the Lord rather than trying to figure out how is it that some are saved and some are not (Deut. 29:29).

    AMR

    It is very apparent that you have not been instrumental in bringing people to Christ. You don't have any good news.

    Why not tell them that, "God so loved the world (everyone) that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" John 3:16,17.

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    Exclamation If All Would Only Do As Robert Pate Did - Contribute to His Re-Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    It is very apparent that you have not been instrumental in bringing people to Christ. You don't have any good news.

    Why not tell them that, "God so loved the world (everyone) that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" John 3:16,17.
    I do, Robert. Fortunately, I when I do use this wonderful passage I also do not misinterpret it to mean what you think it means:

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5068917
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4851757
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5028731
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4920136

    In the end the logical conclusion of your view or anyone who supports such a view is this:

    “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”
    Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.

    #52 - Free Will--A Slave.pdf

    Always a "blessing" to meet a man who is special when compared to his poor neighbors. Unlike your poor neighbors, you were persuaded, you knew something was missing, you longed for God, you were concerned about what was ahead, you looked upwards with hands outward rather than fists clenched.

    Oh, how things would have been so different if only it were you in the Garden, rather than that first man made upright, good, yet mutable. You would have represented all of us then in your loins rightly. You, being ever so much more than that first man, would have prevailed in your probation, and we all would be living eternally, never knowing the sting of death, in the presence of Our Lord.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I do, Robert. Fortunately, I when I do use this wonderful passage I also do not misinterpret it to mean what you think it means:

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5068917
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4851757
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5028731
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4920136

    In the end the logical conclusion of your view or anyone who supports such a view is this:

    “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”
    Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.

    #52 - Free Will--A Slave.pdf

    Always a "blessing" to meet a man who is special when compared to his poor neighbors. Unlike your poor neighbors, you were persuaded, you knew something was missing, you longed for God, you were concerned about what was ahead, you looked upwards with hands outward rather than fists clenched.

    Oh, how things would have been so different if only it were you in the Garden, rather than that first man made upright, good, yet mutable. You would have represented all of us then in your loins rightly. You, being ever so much more than that first man, would have prevailed in your probation, and we all would be living eternally, never knowing the sting of death, in the presence of Our Lord.

    AMR

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    John Calvin could not believe that salvation was by faith alone, so he came up with his doctrine of predestination. He was only 25 years old and fresh out of the catholic church, so it is no surprise that he was screwed up. He wanted to be famous like Martin Luther. It is quite apparent that he had an ego problem.

    Martin Luther declared that salvation was by Christ alone.

    "To him that does NO WORKS but believes on him that justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

    Everyone that is a Calvinist have chosen to be Calvinist by their own free will, that they have deny exist. There is nothing about faith in Christ and his Gospel, they just simply declare that they are now Calvinist.

    All that were saved in the New Testament were saved because they heard and believed the Gospel.

    "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

    Calvinist do not believe this because they do not believe the Gospel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    Christ died for everyone, some believe and some don't. Calvinism is an elaborate system of unbelief in Christ as the savior of the world.
    When you right, you right.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    John Calvin could not believe that salvation was by faith alone, so he came up with his doctrine of predestination.
    Robert,

    Actually, Calvin, as did all the Reformers and those that preceded him, did believe salvation is by faith alone. He did not, nor should we, believe that this faith alone means faith that is alone, unaccompanied by God's power, that fallen man can muster up faith all by himself, nor that man must perform on a treadmill to maintain one's salvation.

    Yes, it was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness and emphasis that it has ever since borne his name. He did not, of course, originate the system but only set forth what appeared to him to shine forth so clearly from the pages of Scripture. The Reformation was all about returning to these truths of Scripture. Unless one denies the state of affairs for fallen men, he or she will find that Scripture attests to this profusely.

    Historically speaking, Calvin gets no credit for "inventing" or "coming up with" the doctrine of predestination. God's choosing of nations and people is clearly taught in Scripture (e.g., Deuteronomy 7:6-7, Isaiah 55:11, John 6:44, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:11-13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, Ephesians 1:3-5, Ephesians 2:4-7, 2 Timothy 1:9) and was the view of those well over a thousand years before Calvin's time. It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation.

    Prior to the fourth century, the time had been largely taken up in correcting heresies within the Church and in refuting attacks from the pagan world in which it found itself. Consequently little emphasis had been placed on the systematic development of doctrine. And that the doctrine of predestination received such little attention in this age was no doubt partly due to the tendency to confuse it with the Pagan doctrine of fatalism which was so prevalent throughout the Roman Empire. But in the fourth century a more settled time had been reached, a new era in theology had dawned, and the theologians came to place more emphasis on the doctrinal content of their message.

    Unfortunately, shortly after the fourth century, there was retrogression rather than progression. Clouds of ignorance blinded the people. The Church became more and more ritualistic and salvation was thought to be through the external Church. Hence the treadmill. This system of merit grew until it reached its climax in the "indulgences." The papacy came to exert great power, political as well as ecclesiastical,and throughout Catholic Europe the state of morals came to be almost intolerable. Even the priesthood became desperately corrupt and in the whole catalog of human sins and vices none are more corrupt or more offensive than those which soiled the lives of such popes as John XXIII and Alexander VI.

    For all these reasons and more, until the time of the Reformation very little emphasis wasplaced on the doctrine of predestination.

    Robert, you would know these things if you undertake a serious study of the history of the church. You should know these things, especially given the upcoming 500th anniversary of the Reformation upcoming this October 31. After all, we Protestants should understand what we are actually protesting. And we most certainly are protesting Pateism.

    Unfortunately, Calvin is a favorite whipping boy for you, so you see him everywhere you look through those tinted mental glasses you wear.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Robert,

    Actually, Calvin, as did all the Reformers and those that preceded him, did believe salvation is by faith alone. He did not, nor should we, believe that this faith alone means faith that is alone, unaccompanied by God's power, that fallen man can muster up faith all by himself, nor that man must perform on a treadmill to maintain one's salvation.

    Yes, it was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness and emphasis that it has ever since borne his name. He did not, of course, originate the system but only set forth what appeared to him to shine forth so clearly from the pages of Scripture. The Reformation was all about returning to these truths of Scripture. Unless one denies the state of affairs for fallen men, he or she will find that Scripture attests to this profusely.

    Historically speaking, Calvin gets no credit for "inventing" or "coming up with" the doctrine of predestination. God's choosing of nations and people is clearly taught in Scripture (e.g., Deuteronomy 7:6-7, Isaiah 55:11, John 6:44, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:11-13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, Ephesians 1:3-5, Ephesians 2:4-7, 2 Timothy 1:9) and was the view of those well over a thousand years before Calvin's time. It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation.

    Prior to the fourth century, the time had been largely taken up in correcting heresies within the Church and in refuting attacks from the pagan world in which it found itself. Consequently little emphasis had been placed on the systematic development of doctrine. And that the doctrine of predestination received such little attention in this age was no doubt partly due to the tendency to confuse it with the Pagan doctrine of fatalism which was so prevalent throughout the Roman Empire. But in the fourth century a more settled time had been reached, a new era in theology had dawned, and the theologians came to place more emphasis on the doctrinal content of their message.

    Unfortunately, shortly after the fourth century, there was retrogression rather than progression. Clouds of ignorance blinded the people. The Church became more and more ritualistic and salvation was thought to be through the external Church. Hence the treadmill. This system of merit grew until it reached its climax in the "indulgences." The papacy came to exert great power, political as well as ecclesiastical,and throughout Catholic Europe the state of morals came to be almost intolerable. Even the priesthood became desperately corrupt and in the whole catalog of human sins and vices none are more corrupt or more offensive than those which soiled the lives of such popes as John XXIII and Alexander VI.

    For all these reasons and more, until the time of the Reformation very little emphasis wasplaced on the doctrine of predestination.

    Robert, you would know these things if you undertake a serious study of the history of the church. Unfortunately, Calvin is a favorite whipping boy for you, so you see him everywhere you look through those tinted mental glasses you wear.

    AMR
    You think that truth is in many words. The more words you have the more truth that you have.

    The Gospel is a very simple message, I suppose that is why you hate it. Religious people like yourself like long complicated discourses and prayers, it makes them appear to know more or to be more holier than others.

    Your religion does not honor God nor does it glorify his Son Jesus Christ, which means that you are doomed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    When you right, you right.
    That's the only reason they don't permanently ban me. I love to kick the Calvinist's when they're down which is all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    That's the only reason they don't permanently ban me. I love to kick the Calvinist's when they're down which is all the time.
    Of all of the phony religions Calvinism is the easiest one to refute.

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    The lament of the intellectually lazy - "Too many words!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    You think that truth is in many words. The more words you have the more truth that you have.

    The Gospel is a very simple message, I suppose that is why you hate it. Religious people like yourself like long complicated discourses and prayers, it makes them appear to know more or to be more holier than others.

    Your religion does not honor God nor does it glorify his Son Jesus Christ, which means that you are doomed.
    Robert,

    You just do not know the full import you are talking about. Given your acedia, it is evident in nearly every post you make. The pride taken in you intellectual laziness emblazons your many redundant posts.

    Despite the claim of others, there is but one Gospel. In a fast food society that likes just snippets it is wrong to assume that but the concise summary of the Gospel in 1 Cor 15 is the only time that Paul calls something "the Gospel". For example, the entire letter of Romans is repeatedly referred to by Paul as "my Gospel". That entire book is a truth contained in many words, Robert.

    Sure, there may be a shorthand way of saying certain things to people who already understand something, but there are no shortcuts by just saying a minimal number of words to a listener and assuming that the person listening has understood the Gospel.

    Robert, sentences in Scripture are not incantations. We are called to press these things into the understanding of our hearers and explain and argue for certain ideas (1 Cor. 10:5). Yes, we may start out with something very basic, as in 1 Cor 15, but we will have to give further explanations or corrections of some matters if a person is inferring something improperly.

    For example, Paul's Romans Road to Salvation, Romans 3:23; 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13, is steeped in unstated presuppositions that will require explanation to the typical non-believer.

    In another related example, seriously consider what must be presupposed in the concise summary statement of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. For example, "sins" presupposes a moral inability; "our" presupposes a marking out of persons, "died for" presupposes particularization of persons; "rose again" presupposes a calling that is effective and provides utmost perseverance.

    If a person goes off and develops a poor understanding which undermines the basic theological framework above, he or she denies the very underlying basis of the Gospel—those presuppositions left unexplained by using Gospel shorthanded expressions—and thereby weakens one's own faith.

    At the end of the day, people need to stop and consider how one could accurately present any Gospel that denies...

    (1) man's wholesale rebellion in sin from birth,
    (2) the right of God the Father to punish men for their sin,
    (3) God the Father's sending of His son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnated as fully God and fully man, out of His mere grace and not for anything men deserved,
    (4) Our Lord's sacrifice on a cross for sin, satisfying the wrath of God the Father for only the ones so given to Our Lord (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9),
    (5) Our Lord saving to the uttermost all who are efficaciously drawn near by God the Holy Spirit,
    (6) God the Father loving His chosen before they loved Him,
    (7) the resurrection of Our Lord, or
    (8) even the power of the Gospel to be the source of life.

    The Gospel is more than just a sentence or two lifted from the full counsel of Scripture. Paul, superintended by God the Holy Spirit, required over 9,400 words in Romans, what he called repeatedly "my gospel". As did Paul, the message of the Gospel requires us to take every word captive for the glory of God. Apparently, you would accuse Paul of prolixity, knowing so much more than God and His ordained servant, Paul. Sigh.

    AMR
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    Lon (September 16th, 2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Robert,

    You just do not know the full import you are talking about. Given your acedia, it is evident in nearly every post you make. The pride taken in you intellectual laziness emblazons your many redundant posts.

    Despite the claim of others, there is but one Gospel. In a fast food society that likes just snippets it is wrong to assume that but the concise summary of the Gospel in 1 Cor 15 is the only time that Paul calls something "the Gospel". For example, the entire letter of Romans is repeatedly referred to by Paul as "my Gospel". That entire book is a truth contained in many words, Robert.

    Sure, there may be a shorthand way of saying certain things to people who already understand something, but there are no shortcuts by just saying a minimal number of words to a listener and assuming that the person listening has understood the Gospel.

    Robert, sentences in Scripture are not incantations. We are called to press these things into the understanding of our hearers and explain and argue for certain ideas (1 Cor. 10:5). Yes, we may start out with something very basic, as in 1 Cor 15, but we will have to give further explanations or corrections of some matters if a person is inferring something improperly.

    For example, Paul's Romans Road to Salvation, Romans 3:23; 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13, is steeped in unstated presuppositions that will require explanation to the typical non-believer.

    In another related example, seriously consider what must be presupposed in the concise summary statement of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. For example, "sins" presupposes a moral inability; "our" presupposes a marking out of persons, "died for" presupposes particularization of persons; "rose again" presupposes a calling that is effective and provides utmost perseverance.

    If a person goes off and develops a poor understanding which undermines the basic theological framework above, he or she denies the very underlying basis of the Gospel—those presuppositions left unexplained by using Gospel shorthanded expressions—and thereby weakens one's own faith.

    At the end of the day, people need to stop and consider how one could accurately present any Gospel that denies...

    (1) man's wholesale rebellion in sin from birth,
    (2) the right of God the Father to punish men for their sin,
    (3) God the Father's sending of His son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnated as fully God and fully man, out of His mere grace and not for anything men deserved,
    (4) Our Lord's sacrifice on a cross for sin, satisfying the wrath of God the Father for only the ones so given to Our Lord (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9),
    (5) Our Lord saving to the uttermost all who are efficaciously drawn near by God the Holy Spirit,
    (6) God the Father loving His chosen before they loved Him,
    (7) the resurrection of Our Lord, or
    (8) even the power of the Gospel to be the source of life.

    The Gospel is more than just a sentence or two lifted from the full counsel of Scripture. Paul, superintended by God the Holy Spirit, required over 9,400 words in Romans, what he called repeatedly "my gospel". As did Paul, the message of the Gospel requires us to take every word captive for the glory of God. Apparently, you would accuse Paul of prolixity, knowing so much more than God and His ordained servant, Paul. Sigh.

    AMR

    The Gospel is that God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Which you don't believe.

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