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Thread: "And You Are Complete in Jesus Christ" Colossians 2:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    How do you have Faith in Christ as the Saviour when you teach that sinners He Lived and died for remain condemned and lost ?
    No one will be saved that does not believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

    You are in conflict with the word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By your own free will you have condemned yourself to the lake of fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Utter Nonsense!


    It's solely by the Faith or Faithulness of Jesus Christ that a person is Justified by Faith, in His Obedience unto death, His Faithfulness in obeying all the Law perfectly for those He died in behalf of Rom. 5:19, the Elect of God or His Body the Church.

    Rom. 8:33
    Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


    So to teach that a person is justified by his own faith, which is a work of the law and of the flesh, he is in direct conflict with the Word of God!


    Gal. 2:16
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


    And it's the same Truth taught in Rom. 5:1:

    Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


    All God's Elect, His Church, shall have their Justification that already exists in the Mind of God, revealed to them in time when they are Given His Spirit in New Birth, of Whom Faith is a fruit of Gal. 5:22.


    2 Tim. 1:9
    Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


    Rom. 5:9-10

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    You make a mockery out of God's word the Bible and a sham out of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You will not escape hell.

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    Psalm 42:1-2 (KJV)

    1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

    2 My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    You make a mockery out of God's word the Bible and a sham out of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You will not escape hell.

    The Gospel of the Power of God is hid from you, because you are lost. 2 Cor. 4:3-4; void of Spiritual Light Is. 8:20!


    The True Gospel is the Testimony of Eternal Grace given in Christ to all God's Elect which were Justified / Saved before the World began:


    2 Tim. 1:8-9

    8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    What more does He ask of man, but that he believe?
    So much more. "Oh God, grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire."

    "Ought" does not imply "can"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    So much more. "Oh God, grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire."

    "Ought" does not imply "can"

    AMR

    All of the demands for the salvation of fallen man have been met by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ.

    This is what Paul meant when he said, "YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM" Colossians 2:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    All of the demands for the salvation of fallen man have been met by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ.

    This is what Paul meant when he said, "YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM" Colossians 2:10.

    The only portion of fallen man that is Complete in Christ are the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5, before conversion or after, because God views them as Righteous, having fulfilled His Law to the uttermost by Christ's Obedience on their behalf.

    Rom. 5:19
    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    The only portion of fallen man that is Complete in Christ are the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5, before conversion or after, because God views them as Righteous, having fulfilled His Law to the uttermost by Christ's Obedience on their behalf.

    Rom. 5:19
    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    You quote scripture without understanding because you are void of the Holy Spirit.

    "So by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" Romans 5:19. Means that Jesus has provided salvation for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9. So that, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

    You need to call on Christ to save you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    So much more. "Oh God, grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire."

    "Ought" does not imply "can"

    AMR
    Not Pelagian again.

    I don't understand the point you are trying to make with that article.

    But what I do know is what I have known from the moment of my salvation. I will give all the glory to God for everything He accomplishes in and through me. Not a bit will I claim as my own doing. First, upon believing, He sheds His love abroad on my heart, and fills me with His Spirit. He provides all the armour I will ever need, and He is going about HIS business of conforming me into His image.

    Trust and reliance on God come with belief....if it doesn't, it isn't belief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    The only portion of fallen man that is Complete in Christ are the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5, before conversion or after, because God views them as Righteous, having fulfilled His Law to the uttermost by Christ's Obedience on their behalf.

    Rom. 5:19
    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    Yep, those who believe will be made righteous. This is the righteousness of FAITH.

    Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    So much more. "Oh God, grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire."

    "Ought" does not imply "can"

    AMR
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Not Pelagian again.

    I don't understand the point you are trying to make with that article.

    But what I do know is what I have known from the moment of my salvation. I will give all the glory to God for everything He accomplishes in and through me. Not a bit will I claim as my own doing. First, upon believing, He sheds His love abroad on my heart, and fills me with His Spirit. He provides all the armour I will ever need, and He is going about HIS business of conforming me into His image.
    On the contrary, Pelagianism in all its forms applies as long as one claims they possess the ability to choose wisely, to "just believe", without any intervention beforehand by God the Holy Spirit to restore their state of moral inability to one that can do what they ought to do (Eze. 36:26).

    The non-believer cannot do what he ought to do. What he ought to do is obey God's command to believe and be saved. He possesses no moral ability to do so. That is why "ought does not imply can" is linked above and carefully explained. That is why the prayer "Oh God, grant what You command, and command what You desire" is applicable.

    If you deny this simple prayer in whole or in part, you are in Pelagian camp, as the article explains (I hope you read it). Pelagius' entire disputation with the church centers around the argument I am making: that the lost cannot do what they ought to do as relates to salvation. Pelagius' argument is simply that anything God commands, the assumption is that man is morally able to comply. Scripture denies this.

    The plain fact of your argument is that the reason you are a believer and your neighbor is not is because you were more wise, more discerning, more intelligent, more obedient, than your neighbor. No matter how much flowery language is used in denying "not my will" the conclusion is inescapable as long as you deny that you were not able to make the right choice until God first acted to restore your moral inability to moral ability, such that you could indeed and irrevocably make the right choice.

    You may simply state that, well, God was acting upon me by wooing me, just as He woos all persons and I just "let go, and let God" as if you were wholly passive in all that is going on. How is it that you did as such, and your neighbor did not? What accounts for your surrender and your neighbor's refusal?

    If you really believe all this, then you are simply denying the obvious. If indeed you played no part, then the fact that you are saved is because God acted upon you in a manner such that you could not not be saved. That's regeneration, quickening, by God the Holy Spirit, Who restored your moral inability to one of moral ability, and at that instant of restoration you were granted faith and repentance. Obviously, something special occurred here, for you are born anew and your neighbor is not.

    After all, God is apparently wooing all persons equally, not playing favorites, yet here you are born again and others are not. You claim you did nothing, made no moral contributions based upon your wisdom, discernment, intelligence, etc. Yet you are saved. The only explanation possible from this state of affairs, given your "Not me, but God only" argument is that God did something to you He did not do to another. Clearly God, for whatever reasons He may have and not revealed (Deut. 20:20), set His preferences upon you and not upon another. God chose you. God did not choose your neighbor, who is exactly like you in every respect, given your claim of God did it all, I did nothing.

    So, if there is a person confused in this discussion it is me. You claim God did it all, you had nothing to do with your being the one of those that was saved by God. So do I.

    Yet, you continue to object to what I have stated. I think the real issue is the cognitive dissonance that you have here in trying mightily to claim no reason for boasting in your salvation, while also denying the Calvinist view of moral inability to choose wisely (no reason for boasting). Either you are in agreement with the Calvinist view or you are not being more clear about what "not a bit will I claim as my own doing" really means.

    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    On the contrary, Pelagianism in all its forms applies as long as one claims they possess the ability to choose wisely, to "just believe", without any intervention beforehand by God the Holy Spirit to restore their state of moral inability to one that can do what they ought to do (Eze. 36:26).

    The non-believer cannot do what he ought to do. What he ought to do is obey God's command to believe and be saved. He possesses no moral ability to do so. That is why "ought does not imply can" is linked above and carefully explained. That is why the prayer "Oh God, grant what You command, and command what You desire" is applicable.

    If you deny this simple prayer in whole or in part, you are in Pelagian camp, as the article explains (I hope you read it). Pelagius' entire disputation with the church centers around the argument I am making: that the lost cannot do what they ought to do as relates to salvation. Pelagius' argument is simply that anything God commands, the assumption is that man is morally able to comply. Scripture denies this.

    The plain fact of your argument is that the reason you are a believer and your neighbor is not is because you were more wise, more discerning, more intelligent, more obedient, than your neighbor. No matter how much flowery language is used in denying "not my will" the conclusion is inescapable as long as you deny that you were not able to make the right choice until God first acted to restore your moral inability to moral ability, such that you could indeed and irrevocably make the right choice.

    You may simply state that, well, God was acting upon me by wooing me, just as He woos all persons and I just "let go, and let God" as if you were wholly passive in all that is going on. How is it that you did as such, and your neighbor did not? What accounts for your surrender and your neighbor's refusal?

    If you really believe all this, then you are simply denying the obvious. If indeed you played no part, then the fact that you are saved is because God acted upon you in a manner such that you could not not be saved. That's regeneration, quickening, by God the Holy Spirit, Who restored your moral inability to one of moral ability, and at that instant of restoration you were granted faith and repentance. Obviously, something special occurred here, for you are born anew and your neighbor is not.

    After all, God is apparently wooing all persons equally, not playing favorites, yet here you are born again and others are not. You claim you did nothing, made no moral contributions based upon your wisdom, discernment, intelligence, etc. Yet you are saved. The only explanation possible from this state of affairs, given your "Not me, but God only" argument is that God did something to you He did not do to another. Clearly God, for whatever reasons He may have and not revealed (Deut. 20:20), set His preferences upon you and not upon another. God chose you. God did not choose your neighbor, who is exactly like you in every respect, given your claim of God did it all, I did nothing.

    So, if there is a person confused in this discussion it is me. You claim God did it all, you had nothing to do with your being the one of those that was saved by God. So do I.

    Yet, you continue to object to what I have stated. I think the real issue is the cognitive dissonance that you have here in trying mightily to claim no reason for boasting in your salvation, while also denying the Calvinist view of moral inability to choose wisely (no reason for boasting). Either you are in agreement with the Calvinist view or you are not being more clear about what "not a bit will I claim as my own doing" really means.

    AMR
    Maybe that particular aspect of Calvinism is correct, in that, one day you read the Bible or heard the word and nothing happened, you weren't convinced but then one day you heard or read, and something was different and you believed. Perhaps God did a work in you that caused you to seek Him and believe, how does that mean that you had no choice? How can you keep from boasting of being chosen over your neighbor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    On the contrary, Pelagianism in all its forms applies as long as one claims they possess the ability to choose wisely, to "just believe", without any intervention beforehand by God the Holy Spirit to restore their state of moral inability to one that can do what they ought to do (Eze. 36:26).

    The non-believer cannot do what he ought to do. What he ought to do is obey God's command to believe and be saved. He possesses no moral ability to do so. That is why "ought does not imply can" is linked above and carefully explained. That is why the prayer "Oh God, grant what You command, and command what You desire" is applicable.

    If you deny this simple prayer in whole or in part, you are in Pelagian camp, as the article explains (I hope you read it). Pelagius' entire disputation with the church centers around the argument I am making: that the lost cannot do what they ought to do as relates to salvation. Pelagius' argument is simply that anything God commands, the assumption is that man is morally able to comply. Scripture denies this.

    The plain fact of your argument is that the reason you are a believer and your neighbor is not is because you were more wise, more discerning, more intelligent, more obedient, than your neighbor. No matter how much flowery language is used in denying "not my will" the conclusion is inescapable as long as you deny that you were not able to make the right choice until God first acted to restore your moral inability to moral ability, such that you could indeed and irrevocably make the right choice.

    You may simply state that, well, God was acting upon me by wooing me, just as He woos all persons and I just "let go, and let God" as if you were wholly passive in all that is going on. How is it that you did as such, and your neighbor did not? What accounts for your surrender and your neighbor's refusal?

    If you really believe all this, then you are simply denying the obvious. If indeed you played no part, then the fact that you are saved is because God acted upon you in a manner such that you could not not be saved. That's regeneration, quickening, by God the Holy Spirit, Who restored your moral inability to one of moral ability, and at that instant of restoration you were granted faith and repentance. Obviously, something special occurred here, for you are born anew and your neighbor is not.

    After all, God is apparently wooing all persons equally, not playing favorites, yet here you are born again and others are not. You claim you did nothing, made no moral contributions based upon your wisdom, discernment, intelligence, etc. Yet you are saved. The only explanation possible from this state of affairs, given your "Not me, but God only" argument is that God did something to you He did not do to another. Clearly God, for whatever reasons He may have and not revealed (Deut. 20:20), set His preferences upon you and not upon another. God chose you. God did not choose your neighbor, who is exactly like you in every respect, given your claim of God did it all, I did nothing.

    So, if there is a person confused in this discussion it is me. You claim God did it all, you had nothing to do with your being the one of those that was saved by God. So do I.

    Yet, you continue to object to what I have stated. I think the real issue is the cognitive dissonance that you have here in trying mightily to claim no reason for boasting in your salvation, while also denying the Calvinist view of moral inability to choose wisely (no reason for boasting). Either you are in agreement with the Calvinist view or you are not being more clear about what "not a bit will I claim as my own doing" really means.

    AMR
    Nope. I actually believe there is POWER in the Gospel to persuade men. I didn't choose to believe...I was persuaded by the preaching of the word. There was nothing better about me, and I don't think true believers ever think that, much less claim it to be so. But I had reached a point in my life where I knew something was missing. There was an emptiness and a concern about what was ahead. I've talked to many people who felt the same. Going about our business, but never really feeling complete.

    It's the light of the glorious Gospel that draws us, and exposes our need for our Saviour. It's a longing we all have as God's creation to know our maker. Which is why God says man is without excuse. What you're saying is that man has an excuse, and must be chosen before he can believe. I don't think for a minute Scripture supports that view. I do think that some men love darkness more than the light (I did myself for too many years) and, should a day come that they are brought to their knees and see their need...or begin to wonder what is missing, they, too, may be looking for that light. I've known people who seek God early in life because of what they have gone through....we are all different. Some are old before they even give God a thought. We all have a lifetime in which to turn to God....who is to say someone doesn't hear? Not me.

    Even the goodness of God can lead people to turn to their Creator....thankfulness and the realization that we are truly blessed and fearfully and wonderfully made. I remember well when I was drawn to know and understand the Creator. Men have always hoped and looked up...seeking to know Him. Nothing special about man desiring to find what he can never find in the world around him. The lack is forever felt by the creature. God made us that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    No one will be saved that does not believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

    You are in conflict with the word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By your own free will you have condemned yourself to the lake of fire.
    You still teach that sinners Christ lived and died for are condemned. Thats not Faith in Christ, sorry!
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Yep, those who believe will be made righteous. This is the righteousness of FAITH.

    Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
    False Teaching. Those Christ obeyed for shall be made righteous Rom 5:19!
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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