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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    That was very nicely done, AMR. I'm going to use this statement of yours to claim you agree with me.

    As to the point I was actually trying to refute, as I think you know, the idea that Jesus only came for the few chosen seems to be refuted by the "full counsel of God" in many other verses. Rather than try to list them all, I would ask you how you would explain this text.
    John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    I submit it's explained by Paul here. For the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    Please do not move the goal posts. My post makes a clear argument that passage you have appealed to cannot support the subsequent claim that John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9 may be dismissed because these verses were only, per your claim, to the "lost sheep of Israel, which is who our Lord was speaking of in those verses...those to whom He was sent. Specifically the Apostles and those Jews who believed He was the Messiah/Good Shepard."

    I have decisively demonstrated that assertion not to be the case. Hence, your argument is on shaky ground until you can directly deconstruct my response rather than moving on to other verses, with a mere tip of the hat to what I have provided.

    This is especially true given that you now appeal to the very Apostle I have used (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9) and a passage, John 6:44-45, wherein John, in quoting Our Lord, stating that on the contrary, therefore, He declares that the doctrine of the Gospel, though it is preached to all without exception, cannot be embraced by all, but that a new understanding and a new perception are required; and, therefore, that faith does not depend on the will of men, but that it is God who gives that very faith.

    Indeed, from the passage in question, we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has chosen.

    True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and a profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from God, who has formed their hearts to obey him. As in John 6:45, this teaching of God is the inward illumination of the heart.

    As to the word all in John 6:45, it must be limited to the elect, who alone are the true children of the Church. It is not difficult to see in what manner Christ applies this prediction to the present subject. Isaiah (who is being quoted in the passage you are using) shows that then only is the Church truly edified, when she has her children taught by God Christ, therefore, justly concludes that men have not eyes to behold the light of life, until God has opened them. But at the same time, John fastens on the general phrase, all; because he argues from it, that all who are taught by God are effectually drawn, so as to come. And to this relates what he immediately adds,

    Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father

    What is said is, that all who do not believe are reprobate and doomed to destruction; because all the sons of the Church and heirs of life are made by God to be his obedient disciples. Hence it follows, that there is not one of all the elect of God who shall not be a partaker of faith in Christ. Again, as Our Lord formerly affirmed that men are not fitted for believing, until they have been drawn, so he now declares that the grace of Christ, by which they are drawn, is efficacious, so that they necessarily believe. Indeed, those drawn cannot not believe.

    For if it is only when the Father has drawn us that we begin to come to Christ, there is not in us any commencement of faith, or any preparation for it.

    On the other hand, if all come whom the Father has taught (God's inward illumination of the heart, as above), He gives to them not only the choice of believing, but faith itself. When, therefore, we willingly yield to the guidance of the Spirit, this is a part, and, as it were, a sealing of grace; because God would not draw us if He were only to stretch out his hand, and then only leave our will in a state of suspense, as if to but merely tease and tantalize us. But in strict propriety of language He is said to draw us when He extends the power of his Spirit to the full effect of faith. The drawn, and only the drawn, are said to hear God, who willingly assent to God speaking to them within, because the Holy Spirit reigns in their hearts.

    Having now dispensed with your erroneous assumptions behind John 6:44-45, your appeal to Paul and Romans 10:13 to support your view also withers, for here the Apostle teaches us the means by which God's redemptive ends are made manifest, via the promiscuous preaching of the gospel by His ordained servants, for it is by the foolish means of the preaching of the gospel that man is ordinarily brought into the Kingdom.

    The verse in no way exegetes John 6:44-45 as you would like it to, rather it illustrates what has been shown above and in my earlier response. After all, when the full counsel of Scripture is properly taken into account, no contradictions are possible.

    AMR
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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Please do not move the goal posts. My post makes a clear argument that passage you have appealed to cannot support the subsequent claim that John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9 may be dismissed because these verses were only, per your claim, to the "lost sheep of Israel, which is who our Lord was speaking of in those verses...those to whom He was sent. Specifically the Apostles and those Jews who believed He was the Messiah/Good Shepard."

    I have decisively demonstrated that assertion not to be the case. Hence, your argument is on shaky ground until you can directly deconstruct my response rather than moving on to other verses, with a mere tip of the hat to what I have provided.

    This is especially true given that you now appeal to the very Apostle I have used (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9) and a passage, John 6:44-45, wherein John, in quoting Our Lord, stating that on the contrary, therefore, He declares that the doctrine of the Gospel, though it is preached to all without exception, cannot be embraced by all, but that a new understanding and a new perception are required; and, therefore, that faith does not depend on the will of men, but that it is God who gives that very faith.

    Indeed, from the passage in question, we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has chosen.

    True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and a profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from God, who has formed their hearts to obey him. As in John 6:45, this teaching of God is the inward illumination of the heart.

    As to the word all in John 6:45, it must be limited to the elect, who alone are the true children of the Church. It is not difficult to see in what manner Christ applies this prediction to the present subject. Isaiah (who is being quoted in the passage you are using) shows that then only is the Church truly edified, when she has her children taught by God Christ, therefore, justly concludes that men have not eyes to behold the light of life, until God has opened them. But at the same time, John fastens on the general phrase, all; because he argues from it, that all who are taught by God are effectually drawn, so as to come. And to this relates what he immediately adds,

    Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father

    What is said is, that all who do not believe are reprobate and doomed to destruction; because all the sons of the Church and heirs of life are made by God to be his obedient disciples. Hence it follows, that there is not one of all the elect of God who shall not be a partaker of faith in Christ. Again, as Our Lord formerly affirmed that men are not fitted for believing, until they have been drawn, so he now declares that the grace of Christ, by which they are drawn, is efficacious, so that they necessarily believe. Indeed, those drawn cannot not believe.

    For if it is only when the Father has drawn us that we begin to come to Christ, there is not in us any commencement of faith, or any preparation for it.

    On the other hand, if all come whom the Father hath taught (God's inward illumination of the heart, as above), He gives to them not only the choice of believing, but faith itself. When, therefore, we willingly yield to the guidance of the Spirit, this is a part, and, as it were, a sealing of grace; because God would not draw us if He were only to stretch out his hand, and then only leave our will in a state of suspense, as if to but merely tease and tantalize us. But in strict propriety of language He is said to draw us when He extends the power of his Spirit to the full effect of faith. The drawn, and only the drawn, are said to hear God, who willingly assent to God speaking to them within, because the Holy Spirit reigns in their hearts.

    Having now dispensed with your erroneous assumptions behind John 6:44-45, your appeal to Paul and Romans 10:13 to support your view also withers, for here the Apostle teaches us the means by which God's redemptive ends are made manifest, via the promiscuous preaching of the gospel by His ordained servants, for it is by the foolish means of the preaching of the gospel that man is ordinarily brought into the Kingdom.

    The verse in no way exegetes John 6:44-45 as you would like it to, rather it illustrates what has been shown above and in my earlier response. After all, when the full counsel of Scripture is properly taken into account, no contradictions are possible.

    AMR
    Please don't overwhelm me with a multitude of words. I thought I admitted your one point and called your other. Now you're trying to make me forget what my point was. I'm comparing a couple of verses in John 6 to what Paul says in Romans 10 about hearing and believing the Gospel. Which, is the very crux of the entire matter.

    Please don't make me grovel for a reply.

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    [QUOTE=Cross Reference;5097598]
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    R

    Nor do we [or anyone else] 'wander around" in them after our physical death as you suggest concerning Jesus..




    Exactly! God had to make His move before decay happened PROVING Jesus was NOT God either before or after the cross UNTIL He was Glorified.



    Our soul is who we are both before and after we die. The soul needs both the body and spirit to carry on business as usual. Having said that I don't mean to suggest it dies but, of necessity, is permitted enter only one of 2 places where it will remain until either the first or second resurrection and that contingent upon its relationship to God.
    Blessed are they who participate in the first resurrection because the second one will be unto everlasting existance where God isn't. . . a terrible eternally more that frightful place.



    I believe I said it returns to God.



    Why do you want to emphasize that when nothing I have said countermands that, when all I have stated is that Jesus wasn't until He was Glorified?
    "because the second one will be unto everlasting existance where God isn't"

    Could you expound upon that using scriptural reference please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    YAH SHUA MESSIAH became incarnate so as to taste death. Death could not hold Him, because of who He is.
    No.

    because of what He became--

    Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
    Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
    Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    LA
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Listen to yourself, CR.

    You are questioning things that will lead you to the truth, if you are humble...where is Jesus' spirit? Jesus' SPIRIT is the Spirit of God.
    No.

    The Spirit of Jesus resides in the Spirit of God forever.

    It was not existent before his birth, like any man.

    There is no scripture showing an incarnation of a preexistent Jesus at Jesus birth.

    Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.





    LA
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    No.

    The Spirit of Jesus resides in the Spirit of God forever.

    It was not existent before his birth, like any man.

    There is no scripture showing an incarnation of a preexistent Jesus at Jesus birth.

    Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.





    LA
    You deny all the many scripture that say Jesus CAME from heaven.

    You are stuck on your falseness no matter what.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    "because the second one will be unto everlasting existance where God isn't"

    Could you expound upon that using scriptural reference please.
    Notice that Cross Reference messed up the quotes again. He/she does that almost as a set routine. Maybe you can fix it because it looks like I said something that I did not.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You deny all the many scripture that say Jesus CAME from heaven.

    You are stuck on your falseness no matter what.
    John was sent from Heaven as well.

    Jesus sends his disciples from heaven the same as He was sent.

    The word came from Heaven but Jesus was born from mankind or the atonement was not effected.

    You have given no scripture to support the idea that an incarnation occurred at the birth of Jesus because you are not a Christian taught by the Spirit of truth.

    Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    LA


    \
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    No.

    The Spirit of Jesus resides in the Spirit of God forever.

    It was not existent before his birth, like any man.

    There is no scripture showing an incarnation of a preexistent Jesus at Jesus birth.

    Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    LA
    If Jesus' spirit resides in the Spirit of God then Jesus is NOT alive. But, alas, He is not dead but alive in a "GLORIFIED BODY" and can go anywhere He desires to be seen of man. In Ex 33:18-20 He couldn't. He wasn't a man.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Listen to yourself, CR.

    You are questioning things that will lead you to the truth, if you are humble...where is Jesus' spirit? Jesus' SPIRIT is the Spirit of God.
    You listen to yourself and please leave me out out of your replies. Thanks.

    "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    . . . . . . God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it".
    Acts 2:22-24(KJV)
    Last edited by Cross Reference; September 13th, 2017 at 06:26 AM.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    John was sent from Heaven as well.

    Jesus sends his disciples from heaven the same as He was sent.

    The word came from Heaven but Jesus was born from mankind or the atonement was not effected.

    You have given no scripture to support the idea that an incarnation occurred at the birth of Jesus because you are not a Christian taught by the Spirit of truth.

    Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    LA


    \
    When was Jesus sent into the world? Get that right before moving on.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

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    John 6:44-45 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me".


    The problem is fundamental: This passage is not unto salvation but son-ship in the Father, the afterwards of salvation, by Christ jesus.

    There is much to learn from God without going to Christ throughout the OT. However,in the NT for the one who is anxious about His soul who knows there is a God, God can now point him to Jesus, the man, Who defined God by His life. [That is what missionaries are for, to point them to the "Way"].. Without the witness of God doing the pointing, going to Jesus doesn't make sense. Enter Peter's testimony in Acts 2:22-24 spoken to those seeking more of God that they would show up for the feast for His blessing. Now consider those who are hearing with no explanation/understanding what is being spoken of in tongues which, no doubt, they would not have been able to understand without one. Enter Peter who stood up and, God using him, pointed them to Jesus by way of Peter's pronouncements with evidence following. . .
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    What Bible do you use? Commentaries? Just askin'.
    I'm convinced by the Scripture, and by evident/plain reason. You?
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

    "...things happen .. and you see the results in the fruits of the happening." Lahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    You listen to yourself and please leave me out out of your replies. Thanks.
    This is a public site. If you do not even know that, how is it you have common sense for the things of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    . . . . . . God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it".
    Acts 2:22-24(KJV)
    It does not go well for you to ignore other scriptures. Jesus raised himself. If he did not raise himself, then he disobeyed God. Why do you want to make it as Jesus disobeyed his Father?

    John 10:1
    No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

    Think about what you are doing and why you are doing it.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    John was sent from Heaven as well.

    Jesus sends his disciples from heaven the same as He was sent.
    Jesus CAME from heaven.

    No other man came from heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    The word came from Heaven but Jesus was born from mankind or the atonement was not effected.

    You have given no scripture to support the idea that an incarnation occurred at the birth of Jesus because you are not a Christian taught by the Spirit of truth.

    Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    LA


    \
    You silly false judgements are only hurting yourself.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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