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Thread: So what is the problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Yep. If He had been God His death could not have happened. You do understand that don't you?
    YAH SHUA MESSIAH became incarnate so as to taste death. Death could not hold Him, because of who He is.

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    [QUOTE=God's Truth;5097590]R
    ight; which is proof our spirits don't die.
    Nor do we [or anyone else] 'wander around" in them after our physical death as you suggest concerning Jesus..


    Jesus did not decay because he was raised from the dead before it could happen.
    Exactly! God had to make His move before decay happened PROVING Jesus was NOT God either before or after the cross UNTIL He was Glorified.

    The soul is a physical body made alive by it's spirit.
    Our soul is who we are both before and after we die. The soul needs both the body and spirit to carry on business as usual. Having said that I don't mean to suggest it dies but, of necessity, is permitted enter only one of 2 places where it will remain until either the first or second resurrection and that contingent upon its relationship to God.
    Blessed are they who participate in the first resurrection because the second one will be unto everlasting existance where God isn't. . . a terrible eternally more that frightful place.

    When the physical body dies, the spirit leaves the body.
    I believe I said it returns to God.

    Jesus is God and he raised himself.
    Why do you want to emphasize that when nothing I have said countermands that, when all I have stated is that Jesus wasn't until He was Glorified?
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    First born from the dead is about being the first resurrected body.
    The firstborn from the dead as a spiritual body, correct. There were other resurrections before Him, but none of those were as the incorruptible spiritual body that He is now. He is the first of that lot, and so far, the only, until the resurrection of all the dead.
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

    "...things happen .. and you see the results in the fruits of the happening." Lahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    The firstborn from the dead as a spiritual body, correct. There were other resurrections before Him, but none of those were as the incorruptible spiritual body that He is now. He is the first of that lot, and so far, the only, until the resurrection of all the dead.
    Question: Since all spirits upon physical death return to God who gave them, whose spirit did Jesus have after His resurrection? His own? God's? And if God's, why? Would not His own have been satisfactory insofar as He was sinless from the beginning and after He returned from the Father after presenting Himself for 'inspection'and being Glorified, why the need for maybe an advanced updated version? . . . <tongue in cheek>
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Question: Since all spirits upon physical death return to God who gave them
    I don't know what you mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    , whose spirit did Jesus have after His resurrection? His own? God's?
    Yes, if you mean by spirit soul. His soul is human, and He is God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    And if God's, why? Would not His own have been satisfactory insofar as He was sinless from the beginning and after He returned from the Father after presenting Himself for 'inspection'and being Glorified, why the need for maybe an advanced updated version? . . . <tongue in cheek>
    I don't know what you mean.
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    I don't know what you mean.
    Yes, if you mean by spirit soul. His soul is human, and He is God.
    I don't know what you mean.
    What Bible do you use? Commentaries? Just askin'.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    CR
    Why do you always have to mess up the quote feature?
    You do it almost all the time, why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Nor do we [or anyone else] 'wander around" in them after our physical death as you suggest concerning Jesus..
    Jesus went to prison/hell to the spirits of dead people and preached to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Exactly! God had to make His move before decay happened PROVING Jesus was NOT God either before or after the cross UNTIL He was Glorified.
    Jesus raised himself.

    John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

    If you want to keep saying Jesus did not raise himself, then you are saying Jesus DISOBEYED.

    Read the scripture more carefully. Jesus was COMMANDED to RAISE HIMSELF.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post

    Our soul is who we are both before and after we die. The soul needs both the body and spirit to carry on business as usual. Having said that I don't mean to suggest it dies but, of necessity, is permitted enter only one of 2 places where it will remain until either the first or second resurrection and that contingent upon its relationship to God.
    Blessed are they who participate in the first resurrection because the second one will be unto everlasting existance where God isn't. . . a terrible eternally more that frightful place.



    I believe I said it returns to God.
    The scriptures show us our spirits LIVE in conscientiousness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Why do you want to emphasize that when nothing I have said countermands that, when all I have stated is that Jesus wasn't until He was Glorified?
    Maybe you need to explain that more. I am patient. Please explain more what you mean.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    The firstborn from the dead as a spiritual body, correct. There were other resurrections before Him, but none of those were as the incorruptible spiritual body that He is now. He is the first of that lot, and so far, the only, until the resurrection of all the dead.
    Others have been resurrected from the dead, but they were given the same body they had while they lived on earth.

    Jesus is the first to be given the Spiritual physical body; the kind of body we will get at the resurrection.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Question: Since all spirits upon physical death return to God who gave them, whose spirit did Jesus have after His resurrection? His own? God's? And if God's, why? Would not His own have been satisfactory insofar as He was sinless from the beginning and after He returned from the Father after presenting Himself for 'inspection'and being Glorified, why the need for maybe an advanced updated version? . . . <tongue in cheek>
    Listen to yourself, CR.

    You are questioning things that will lead you to the truth, if you are humble...where is Jesus' spirit? Jesus' SPIRIT is the Spirit of God.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Others have been resurrected from the dead, but they were given the same body they had while they lived on earth.

    Jesus is the first to be given the Spiritual physical body; the kind of body we will get at the resurrection.
    Right. That's what I said.
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

    "...things happen .. and you see the results in the fruits of the happening." Lahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    That's interesting. What books would you buy?
    Buy a NIV / KJV study bible, and also get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and a NIV Exhaustive Concordance. There are also other books that I would recommend, but these will get a person started in a real study of scriptures. These books will help you see what is really in scriptures.

    Online Bible Study Tools.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/
    http://biblehub.com/
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...brew_Index.htm
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...reek_Index.htm
    http://www.linkedword.com/gen/1/-1/0
    Bible Dictionaries.
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/
    https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/
    http://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hbd/
    Ancient Greek Bible Text Online.
    http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx
    English Translation of the Greek Septuagint Bible.
    http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

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    Different bible scholars will reveal things that the others won't show you.

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    Lightbulb Matthew 15:24 - The Lost Sheep of Israel Explained

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    But the sacrifice covered more than just the lost sheep of Israel, which is who our Lord was speaking of in those verses...those to whom He was sent. Specifically the Apostles and those Jews who believed He was the Messiah/Good Shepard. IMHO
    Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    After He had risen, His sacrifice covered all who believe through the Gospel of Grace.
    From the verse you quoted (Matthew 15:24) it seems you are assuming to the sheep of the lost house of Israel specifically. That is the only way you can make the argument you are trying to make to discount the clarity of the particularisms of John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9.

    This approach ignores the full counsel of Scripture.

    Consider:

    John 10:24-26
    24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
    25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
    26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

    In the passage above, Our Lord was speaking to people who were direct decendants of Israel. Obviously, your assumptions cannot be as you have assumed, so Matthew 15:24 means something very different than you think it means, so let's examine what is going on.

    At first glance Jesus seems to acquiesce with the disciples’ request. He responds with the very words he used in instructing the disciples on their mission in Matthew 10:5-6. This is another crux interpretum for Matthew’s view of mission and the place of the Gentiles in it, and “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” is taken from Matthew 10:6.

    On the surface Matthew 10:6 seems to contradict the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19, which commands the disciples to “go and make disciples from all the nations.” Why restrict their ministry to the Jewish people? Yet this follows Jesus’ own pattern, for he stayed in Galilee for the most part and in Matthew 15:24 he states that he was sent only “to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (an epexegetical genitive — the lost sheep are all of Israel). The “lost sheep” were all the Jewish people (not a portion who are “lost,” like tax collectors and sinners or the common people) and refers back to Matthew 9:36, where Jesus saw them as “harassed … sheep without a shepherd.”

    At the same time, however, Jesus was willing to minister to Gentiles (Matthew 8:5-13) and even to go to Gentile areas (Matthew 8:28-34) and Samaritan towns (Luke 9:51-56; Luke 17:11-19; John 4:1-42) to minister. Our Lord strongly includes the nations in God’s salvation (Matt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:32) and stresses the significance of Jesus for the Gentiles (2:1-12; 4:14-16, 24-25).

    In fact, when Jesus said he came only for Israel (Matthew 15:24), he had traveled all the way to Tyre and Sidon (two days’ journey out of Galilee) and was ministering to a Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:21-28).

    The answer to this seeming anomaly is salvation-historical, that Jesus restricted his and the disciples’ ministries to the Jewish people but deliberately went to Gentile regions on occasion to prepare his disciples for their later universal mission. So this command fits only the time of Jesus’ ministry to his own people. This short-term missionary tour is a paradigm for the permanent mission of the future, and it provides training for that later missionary activity. In one sense, Paul followed this pattern in his missionary journeys and in his “first to the Jew, then to the Gentile” of Rom 1:16.

    The Jewish people are hopeless, like “sheep without a shepherd” (the failure of its leadership, see Matthew 9:36) and “lost” both in a national sense and especially in their stance before God. This passage, Matthew 15:24, is the turning point from a Jewish-based mission (Matthew 10:5-6) to the universal mission to all the nations, Jews and Gentiles, hinted at in Matthew 8:16-17; 10:18 (in the context of Matthew 10:5-6) and made explicit in Matthew 28:19.

    Here Jesus is at first agreeing with the disciples to leave the woman and her daughter. This fits the context well at this point and shows an initial reluctance to extend his ministry to the Gentiles in the church’s mission. Here Jesus continues the salvation-historical centrality of Israel in God’s plan of salvation, his special grace to his chosen people. But in the ensuing narrative (verses following Matthew 15:24) Jesus extends that grace to the Gentile woman as a signal of this coming, unheard-of grace of God, yet an extension that has been hinted at in the place of the Gentiles throughout Matthew’s gospel (see Matthew 1:5-6; 2:1-12; 8:10-12, 28-34; 10:18). This is a test or prompt of some kind designed to draw out the woman into further discussion… to see what kind of belief this woman possesses.

    As Jesus spoke to this woman there were two understandings of who Israel was. The popular understanding that Israel were the descendants in the flesh of Abraham and the reality that 'not all Israel is Israel'.

    Consider Genesis 17:23-27
    23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son and all those born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised. 27 And all the men of his house, those born in the house and those bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.

    Abraham circumcised all the males. This included servants and his army. These non-children of Abraham became the proto-Israel. To be Israel has always been to be a child of promise and covenant, not of the flesh of Abraham. So in Jesus day 'not all Israel was Israel'.

    However, though this was true, Jesus was speaking of the popular bias that the Jews alone are Israel in order to test the Gentile woman's faith. The thrust of this story is the faith of the woman given to and tested by Jesus, not who was the true Israel.

    LastIy, it is worth observing that Our Lord declares himself to have been sent to lost sheep, as he assures us in another passage that he came to save that which was lost (Matthew 18:11). Now as we enjoy this favor at the present day, in common with the Jews, we learn what our condition is until he appears as our Savior.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    This approach ignores the full counsel of Scripture.

    Consider:


    The answer to this seeming anomaly is salvation-historical, that Jesus restricted his and the disciples’ ministries to the Jewish people but deliberately went to Gentile regions on occasion to prepare his disciples for their later universal mission. So this command fits only the time of Jesus’ ministry to his own people. This short-term missionary tour is a paradigm for the permanent mission of the future, and it provides training for that later missionary activity. In one sense, Paul followed this pattern in his missionary journeys and in his “first to the Jew, then to the Gentile” of Rom 1:16.


    AMR
    That was very nicely done, AMR. I'm going to use this statement of yours to claim you agree with me.

    As to the point I was actually trying to refute, as I think you know, the idea that Jesus only came for the few chosen seems to be refuted by the "full counsel of God" in many other verses. Rather than try to list them all, I would ask you how you would explain this text.


    John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    I submit it's explained by Paul here. For the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    The Bible Says God raised Jesus. God had to because God had forsaken Him on the cross and because Jesus was sinless leaving God with no choice but to raise Him, which He had already purposed to but had to wait until all was accomplished by Jesus descending into the grave and unlocking the saints from their prison of death because of Adam's transgression. Death, the last enemy.
    God had not forsaken Him. If you read the Psalm from which Jesus was quoting, you'll see that. He was fulfilling prophecy, and those Jews standing around understood what He was saying He was the Messiah.

    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

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