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  1. #31
    Over 4000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    How can you guys ever find the truth when you pay no attention to specifics? You guys are saying all kinds of things that are not in the original text. Buy or go online to find study material. Do not take anyone's word for things. The truth is not always what we want it to be, so don't have a closed mind.

  2. #32
    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    How can you guys ever find the truth when you pay no attention to specifics? You guys are saying all kinds of things that are not in the original text. Buy or go online to find study material. Do not take anyone's word for things. The truth is not always what we want it to be, so don't have a closed mind.
    That's interesting. What books would you buy?
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  3. #33
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    The Bible shows us that God the Father came as a Son in the flesh.
    NO, The Word was God and the Word came in the flesh. John 1:1, John 1:14

    The Bible shows us that Jesus is God the Father.
    Show me the verse...like I just showed you.

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  5. #34
    Over 1500 post club nikolai_42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    So what is the problem if believing Jesus was more man than God while on Earth but a man as God intended man to be when He created Adam who, by Eve, would have "birthed" sons as Sons of God unto His Glory? If I said Jesus "held in trust" the complete Godhead would not have changed anything either. He was still a man in doing so and made intensely more vulnerable in every step of His life protecting what was in His trust, handling God's glory from His flesh even unto the cross. He didn't have to come as God-man. The Holy Spirit conception was the only way God could introduce a sinless man into Adamís fallen race, He came to redeem? Being sinless and remaining that way was the only requirement for doing so and in the successful completion of His mission, His intended glorification by God was made a fact to be believed upon.
    {Emphasis added}

    I would say that the primary concern would come down to the statement that God even could be more man than God. For that matter, Him being more God than man would seem to be missing the point as well. While I don't see evidence that He was more one than the other, the dominant controversy of His ministry was His identity as God :

    He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
    And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
    He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
    For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    John 3:31-34

    Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am

    John 8:57-58

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
    And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
    And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
    But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    Hebrews 1:1-13

    These samples of scripture speak to a unique manifestation of someone who is certainly higher than angels and identifies Himself directly with God of the OT. That is either blasphemy or the ground of His authority and mandate for the ministry He executes faithfully on earth.

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    John 14:9-10

    This does not appear to be what man was intended to be in Adam. Rather, this is Adam's Creator coming to Adam personally (again!) as Savior to reconcile him back to God. That reconciliation doesn't equate him with God (as it seems you would do with Christ and unfallen Adam) but puts him back where he is to be in the Divine economy - a little lower than the angels (Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:7-9). I don't see how Jesus is a little lower than the angels if the angels worship Him.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

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  7. #35
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    NO, The Word was God and the Word came in the flesh. John 1:1, John 1:14
    1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father,

    Ephesians 4:6
    one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


    Did you read those?

    One God and He is the Father.

    Since Jesus is God, then he is also the Father, because there is only one and He is the Father.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  8. #36
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the589 View Post
    A better way is to say G-d send Jesus his only begotten Son. 1 John 4:9

    There's also 2 Chronicles 6:18
    Those scriptures do not disprove that God came as a Son in the flesh.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  9. #37
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post

    And? What does that have to do what we are discussing, what you wrote?

    Jesus was a human. Human's have their own spirit. Jesus' was sinless. He also was indwelt by the "Word of God" by the Holy Spirit conception. Now that tells me had (2) spirits that were IN Him, one of Holy Spirit. The other of Adam.
    No. Jesus' Spirit IS the Holy Spirit of God.

    The scriptures tell us that plainly.

    Now all you have to do is believe.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  10. #38
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    How can you guys ever find the truth when you pay no attention to specifics? You guys are saying all kinds of things that are not in the original text. Buy or go online to find study material. Do not take anyone's word for things. The truth is not always what we want it to be, so don't have a closed mind.
    Your talk is insulting and cheap. Prove it that what I said is false. Prove it with the scriptures you claim you know. I already know you are full of falseness because you came off saying what you did.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  11. #39
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    I repeat, No. He was MADE little lower than the angels
    Lower than the angels at his human birth, but he was later born of the Spirit.

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit." (John 3:6)

  12. #40
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Lower than the angels at his human birth, but he was later born of the Spirit.

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit." (John 3:6)
    Why do you keep saying that? Jesus is the Spirit. Jesus' words are Spirit.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  13. #41
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father,

    Ephesians 4:6
    one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


    Did you read those?

    One God and He is the Father.

    Since Jesus is God, then he is also the Father, because there is only one and He is the Father.
    Scripture doesn't say that....you do.

    You won't find a verse anywhere that says Jesus is the Father or the Son is the Father. If God meant that Jesus is the Father, He would have told us. If God meant that the Son is the Father, He would have told us that.

    1 John 5:20
    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Your talk is insulting and cheap. Prove it that what I said is false. Prove it with the scriptures you claim you know. I already know you are full of falseness because you came off saying what you did.
    GT's gettin' bold
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    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

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  16. #43
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Scripture doesn't say that....you do.

    You won't find a verse anywhere that says Jesus is the Father or the Son is the Father. If God meant that Jesus is the Father, He would have told us. If God meant that the Son is the Father, He would have told us that.

    1 John 5:20
    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
    The scriptures say Jesus is the Spirit.

    The scriptures say the Father is Spirit, and that there is only one Spirit.

    Scriptures say there is one God and that Jesus is God.

    Scriptures say Jesus will be called Father.

    Jesus says the overcomers will be his children.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  17. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    He didn't have to come as God-man.
    Sure He did. No mere "more man than God", could have propitiated the wrath of God for the sin of those whom He specifically came to redeem.

    Some will ask:
    "If our sins are punished by eternal separation from God, why did Jesus only have to suffer momentary separation?"

    That's a good question, and I think there's a pretty clear answer.

    In fact, other questions would be, How can one man suffer when millions should've suffered? Same kind of issue. How does one suffering become the suffering of millions? The math doesn't work! How does suffering for threehours on a cross correspond to delivering people from eternity in hell? All those kinds of questions apply here.

    The answer is that the degree of suffering, indignity, reproach, degradation, and fall that Jesus endured is not simply determined temporally. And it's not simply determined by the exquisiteness of the pain of a nail cutting through a nerve in your wrist.

    It's determined by the difference between the glory that Our Lord had with the Father in heaven and the ignominy that He suffered, naked and hanging as the Son of God on the cross. It's that distance that is the magnitude that provides the scope needed in His suffering to cover an eternity in hell and to cover the sins of millions of people.

    The way to think about it is that we commit a greater indignity against God, not just in accord with how many sins we commit or how bad they are, but in accord with how great God is. Therefore our sins are infinitely great because they're against an infinite person and deserve an infinite punishment.

    God the Son, being an infinite Person, became so low in His incarnation that that drop in suffering, that drop in indignity was such a huge drop—it was an infinite drop—that it suffices to cover the sins of millions and to cover the entire length of eternity that we deserve to be in hell.

    The gift is valued according to the altar on which it is presented. Christ offered Himself through the eternal Spirit (Heb. 9:14), that is to say, He offered His human nature on the altar of His divine nature. He was able to suffer infinite punishment and satisfy divine justice because of the dignity of His person. His divine nature being eternal, His offering possesses an eternal quality. Hence, although Christ did not sacrifice Himself eternally, He nevertheless offered an eternal sacrifice to satisfy divine justice.

    No one, but He who is fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second subsistence (Person) of the Trinity assumed (took upon Himself) a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused could make the sacrifice Our Lord made for those He came to redeem (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9)

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  19. #45
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    The scriptures say Jesus is the Spirit.
    No, the verse you're referring to says the Lord is that Spirit. Since you insist on taking it out of context, you are quick to assume you know what it's saying. You don't.

    2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

    The scriptures say the Father is Spirit, and that there is only one Spirit.
    The scripture actually says God is a Spirit.

    John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


    Scriptures say there is one God and that Jesus is God.
    Yes, they do say there is ONE GOD, and they say the Word was God and the Word became flesh.

    Scriptures say Jesus will be called Father.
    I believe that is referring to the Jews when He comes back to rule on earth. (future)

    Jeremiah 31:9
    9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

    Jesus says the overcomers will be his children.
    Again, I think you're forcing the issue without any scriptural support.

    You should just stop making pronouncements and quote scripture. Then speak about each verse rather than assume the book says what you think it says.

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