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Thread: D'ism was invented because Chafer thought the Bible was confused

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Enjoy your heritage D'ists. That's why it exists. The guy couldn't digest the apostles teachings. This is not opinion; it is his words, recently noted with background by Northwye.

    To bolster support, the 'enemy' of RT was concocted. This buried the actual RT issue which is at Gal 3:17. Very clever.
    Yeah, right.

    The following dates all the way back to 1742-1744, when it's writer was then in College.

    Note:

    John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was not even born.

    And certainly, not Lewis Sperry Chafer (February 27, 1871 – August 22, 1952).

    It is a bit different from later models, but an understanding very similar to that of today's Dispensationalist is obvious.

    The following is an excerpt from his...


    TWO ACADEMICAL EXERCISES

    - by Morgan Edwards (published later, in 1788)

    II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.

    I say, somewhat more, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ’s "appearing in the air" (1 Thes. iv, 17); and this is for about three years and a half before the Millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time?

    No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many “mansions in the Father's house of God" (John xiv: 2), and to disappear during the aforesaid period of time.

    The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for " now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be at the house of God" (1 Pet. iv. 17): to this refers that part of my text, "and I saw thrones; and judgment was given," viz. 'the saints were judged, and their rewards specified; of which, mark hereafter.'

    Knowing all this, the Devil will follow to accuse the brethren to the Judge; and will continue at it day and night in hope of preventing their acquaintance: their pleas against him will be those borrowed from the " blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony:”

    By these they will prevail in judgment; and their accuser will be hurled down to the earth by the strong arm of Michael; and with him will come, that notable voice; ''Woe unto the inhabitants of the earth for the Devil is come down among you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time;" viz. three years and a half, as before (Rev. xii. 7-11).

    Add to the above, that between the end of the, Millennium and the Second Resurrection the Devil is to be let loose, and Gog and Magog's army to be destroyed, which will require a considerable time, though John calls it “a little season." (Rev. xx.3.)

    III. Christ's personal reign on earth will be a thousand years at least.

    I call it personal, to distinguish it from that proxical dominion which he hath exercised on earth since he quitted it, and retired to heaven.

    And I have added at least a thousand years because he will not quit the earth, nor resign his delegation till after The Last Judgment; and the presentation of all the saints before God, with a "Behold I, and the children which thou hast given me!" (Heb. xi. 13).

    Then his Mediatorial Kingdom and reign will cease; and he and they will be subject to the Father till the new Earth be prepared for another kind of reign.

    IV: Christ’s kingdom on earth will be universal.

    No people or state will be left out.

    And herein it will exceed the Roman, Grecian, Persian or Babylonian monarchies, which also laid claim to universality; for Christ will ''reign from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the Earth" (Zech. ix. io).

    'The kingdoms of the world shall become “the kingdoms of Christ." (Rev. xi, 15).

    "All kings shall fall down before him, and all nations shall serve him.” (Psalm. Xxx): surely David had in his eye that Son, who was also his Lord; for to his son Solomon the above text is by no means applicable. See Dan. viii. V.

    That spot of Earth which Christ will make the seat of his governments is Mount Zion, in Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem and the temple will be rebuilt, as we shall prove by and by and that Temple will be the house of Christ kingdom.

    A prophet and an angel assure us that the above doctrine is true, "He will reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem before his ancients gloriously," saith the prophet (Isaiah xxiv.23); and that he means what we mean is evident from the New Testament, where the words are quoted, and applied to this very subject.

    Gabriel adds his suffrage thus, God will give him the throne of his father David, and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever." (Luke 1: 32,33): this throne has not yet been given to the son of David; but in the Millennium.

    Many more passages may be quoted to support our other doctrines; but this would be superfluous; as one text, rightly applied is proof sufficient of any religious point....
    The point being that one sees what one sees in Scripture, depending on one's approach, and neither Darby nor Ryrie, nor Chafer, nor whomever, were the first in the history of these issues to approach them in the way you and yours continue to misrepresent was some sort of a later development.

    There you have it, IP, your witness on this issue, based as yours obviously is on your ever one-sided, pseudo-books based expertise, is proven a falsehood, by - of all things - a book "about."

    Nevertheless, Romans 5:8.

    ____________

    A postscript...

    Spoiler

    I am not asserting Edwards was Pretribulational in his beliefs; it is clear from a careful reading of the above by him, that he was not.

    At the same time, it is just as clear his above writings hold a witness to some understandings on his part very similar to some held within Dispensationalism as well, and way before Darby; Chafer; et al (though obviously closer in an understanding to that of Acts 2 Dispensationalism than to that of Acts 9, or Mid-Acts Dispensationalism aka M.A.D.).

    Just as the document, Pseudo-Ephraem (written around 300 to 600 AD) teaches a Rapture but one that is not only not Pre-Trib, but confuses it with Believing Israel's Promised delivery in the wilderness during the time of their persecution as described in passages like Rev. 12.).

    Pseudo-Ephraem having obviously held that the Body being, per said document's view, spiritual Israel, goes through the Trib, Pseudo-Ephraem then viewed yet future, but is delivered through said Trib by the Lord in the dessert, where He has Raptured them off to, to feed and protect them there, etc.

    But that is actually the Believing Remnant of Israel or man-child, etc., described in Scripture.
    Last edited by Danoh; September 8th, 2017 at 06:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Where is the established passage like I Cor 15 that says ANYTHING like what STP has there in his 3 realms, his 3P3P?
    Search the scriptures. You will find land, city, heaven. Yet one kingdom of God.
    Put down your commentaries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    It's more like a branch of Mormonism. He has no idea that the whole place will be radically different from what we have now.
    made up
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi ans lets start with Rom 5:14 and lets see what you have missed !!

    #1 Death began with those that sinned BEFORE Adam , Angels !!
    That would be irrelevant to Paul's point, as angels have no hope redemption. To stay on topic, which I know is hard for you to do with your scripture scatter gun approach, Paul is talking about righteousness of faith. And so your little tangent swing has to remain along side Paul's train of thought, not swept away on the mad love boat.


    #2 And NO ONE can have FREE WILL like Adam and No ONE will ever SIN like Adam after the LIKENESS of Adam's transgression !!
    From Adam to Moses. From Moses to Christ there were numerous commands to break.

    # 3 There is NO MORE SO-CALLED free will !!
    That's another discussion in itself. But I disagree. We are all born with free will.

    #4 You never mention what the PATTERN was ?
    Pattern?

    Adam was the PATTERN of the Old CreTION But Christ is the New PATTERN of thre New Creation , the B O C !!

    So how were peoplw saved from ADAM through MOSES , is did not see you answer ??

    Did I miss what the ONE GOSPEL from Adam through Moses !!

    Tell me what what it IS ??
    Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

    Those outside the law will be judged by conscience, and those within the law will be judged by the law.
    Two different standard for two separated groups.

    The answer is in Gen 4 , but if you say it is a gospel , THEN there must be 2 GOSPELS and you can NOT agree with that because you believe in only ONE GOSPEL !!
    The plan of God concerning the new covenant, was to remove the divide and unite the two. The conscience is cleansed for those outside the law, and the law is abolished for those under the law. Righteousness by faith for all.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

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    Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
    writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
    the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
    to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

    Chafer, a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
    writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
    the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
    to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

    Chafer, a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.
    is it ok with God if you eat pork?
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
    writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
    the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
    to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

    Chafer, a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.
    You should forgive him so that your heavenly Father can forgive you.

    Then...while you're at it, lay hands on him that he might recover.
    Last edited by steko; September 8th, 2017 at 11:29 AM.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    God has kept everything for Israel in jesus Christ. Acts 13. The things promised have been kept in the resurrection event. It is final. The mission is here. What have you done in it today?
    The "real writer and grammar scholar" can't even respect the LORD Jesus Christ with a capitalized proper name (per the rules of English grammar).

    Get lost you extreme poser!
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    2P2P is entirely made up. A resurrection not completing promise to Israel is made up. A NT that thinks there is a land of Israel or 2nd round of Judaism that is part of eschatology is made up. Mt24 about details in Judea in the future is made up.
    Brought to you by the "real writer and grammar scholar" (that apparently does not know anything about writing or grammar).

    You're a POSER in every way!
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Dan, the power you are talking about, from your perspective, is simply about how you assume superiority over a less important group of people.
    For instance, if you happened end up in Peter's gang, you've suddenly lost all your power, haven't you?
    You're the one at the car wash waxing Paul's Mercedes.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    is it ok with God if you eat pork?
    STP, you're such a ham.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    You should forgive him so that your heavenly Father can forgive you.

    Then...while you're at it, lay hands on him that he might recover.
    ..... and heal the sick, and raise the dead, .......

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    is it ok with God if you eat pork?

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    That would be irrelevant to Paul's point, as angels have no hope redemption. To stay on topic, which I know is hard for you to do with your scripture scatter gun approach, Paul is talking about righteousness of faith. And so your little tangent swing has to remain along side Paul's train of thought, not swept away on the mad love boat.




    From Adam to Moses. From Moses to Christ there were numerous commands to break.



    That's another discussion in itself. But I disagree. We are all born with free will.



    Pattern?



    Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

    Those outside the law will be judged by conscience, and those within the law will be judged by the law.
    Two different standard for two separated groups.



    The plan of God concerning the new covenant, was to remove the divide and unite the two. The conscience is cleansed for those outside the law, and the law is abolished for those under the law. Righteousness by faith for all.
    Hi and just threw in that angels were the first sinners and you got one right , that angels can not be redeemable !!

    Under #2 you say that there were commands to be broken , so name a few , but from Adam to Moses and is there a name for them ??

    What is a PATTERN , ot type , and do you understand TYPE ??

    In 1 Tim 1:16 Paul is a PATTERN for those that were saved after Paul !!


    You did quote a good verse in Rom 2:12 , so will say it is the GOSPEL OF NO LAW !!

    Looks like you are a proponent of at least 2 gospels , is what I see !!


    Gen 4:4 does not mention the NEW COVENANT and since you mentioned it , How can anyone be saved under that Covenant and explain how salvation is sure !!

    My fingers are very numb and am having trouble !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
    writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
    the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
    to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

    Chafer, a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.
    Yours is basically the myopia of the extremist.

    There is often no reasoning with such.

    And regardless of the particular shade of extremism, each suffers from the same narrow-minded lens that is the looking at a thing as an end product set in stone (content) in contrast to looking at it as an ever live dynamic (principles).

    I've lost count of how often I have attempted to point out this critical distinction to various extremists on here, but here goes once more for nought, more often than not, I'm sure.

    You basically asserted your set in stone take on a thing - "Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has '...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both...'" this and that.

    Now watch the actual live dynamic the Dispensationist is actually following, whether he knows it or not (though awareness of it will allow far much finer distinctions than is otherwise possible absent of said conscious awareness).

    Here, I'll be talking principles over content set in stone.

    Here goes...

    Later, much more developed means of communication of intended meaning through various rules of grammar, as they were developed - rules like the separation of letters into individual words, and sentences, together with punctuation, and even further divisions of things via chapters and verses "changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less unclear writings, as is, into a much more organized or classified and easily assimilated revelation of both" one thing or another much better divided from one anorher, throughout the Scripture.

    Dispensationalism is nothing more than that same kind of living dynamic, ever evolving...dynamic.

    When one's Dispensationalism is actually consistent, that is.

    A system dependent on the Scripture itself as to what goes where, just as an earlier form writing like this mass of letters all as one...



    ...gradually evolved into this much more organized and cohesive...



    ...via the much later, further developed system or "ism" we now know as a division of letters into individual words, together with an even further division of punctuation, and further still, the separation of thoughts into each their own sentences, chapters, and so on, towards far greater ease in use, and therefore, in greater ease of approachability.

    You see, northwye, while your kind - regardless of school of thought - are blinded by your set in stone "this and that" this Dispy has long since evolved beyond the "milk" that is your obvious ignorance, to the meat that is "what higher principle or guiding rule of thumb is actually at work in whatever this or that, I happen to be looking at, and or am attempting to sort out..."

    And what I have found is the important role that is shifting from looking at a thing from it's mere content, to a wider frame of reference, where it's various underlying principles are made obvious.

    Not to worry, though, you and your kind are not the first in your kind of myopia...

    The Lord Himself had to deal with such would be "fishermen" where this principle is concerned.

    John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    Nevertheless, Rom. 5:8

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to Danoh For Your Post:

    steko (September 8th, 2017)

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