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Thread: Are We Now In the Time of the prophecy of Luke 17: 26-29?

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    northwye, regarding the comments on James' words in Acts 17 per your post repeated in the Spoiler below, both you and Kelley, are off.

    His is obviously an Acts 2 Dispensationalist position.

    Acts 2 Dispensationalism has never been a consistent Dispensationalism.

    And what Kelley asserts, as cited in your post, is one example of that.

    James was neither asserting that the Amos Prophecy will take place after this Gentile age, nor denying it.

    Neither was he asserting what was taking place back in the 1st Century was in fulfillment of Amos.

    It is clear James and company were unsure what all was actually going on.

    Only that it did not contradict the Prophets because God did say through them He would do a work among the Gentiles; God was obviously behind what was then happening; He knew what was what, and so that was good enough for them.

    James' response is a response commonly depicted in Scripture, during times where God does a thing not yet understood by His saints, but they nevertheless go along with Him in their sense that He alone is Sovereign; He knows best; and so that is good enough for them.

    Peter; his companions; and the others are all depicted experiencing that and going with it, in Acts 10, and 11.

    Or as summarized in...

    Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    And in....

    Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

    Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

    15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

    When their minds were right, those men were all about "When in doubt, let go, and let God..."

    When their minds were right, that was their mantra, whether in doubt, or with their backs up against a wall...

    Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

    THAT is how one gets in their minds - via verse with verse comparison, Isaiah 8:20; Luke 24:27; Acts 17:11,12.

    NOT via yours and IP's so obvious endless books based approach, nor via the fool nonsense often propagated by him, that all one need do is read the passages aloud 10x and in just some supposed right inflection.

    Talk about "what a fool believes..."

    Once more, you and yours prove yourselves clueless about the One BOOK "about" you each should know far better by now than any of you clearly do.

    Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    Nevertheless, Romans 5:8

    Spoiler
    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    This Looks Like One Dispensationalist View of Luke 17: 20-37

    https://gracethrufaith.com/end-times...imes-prophecy/

    "Luke 17, The Lord’s Other End Times Prophecy - A Bible Study by Jack Kelley"

    "After being rejected and executed by the leaders of His generation, the Lord would go away, and only the invisible phase of the Kingdom would remain. It’s called the Church"

    "This is a clue as to why the Church and Israel are mutually exclusive in the world. The Kingdom of God began with Israel. He had Moses tell them so. “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Exodus 19:5-6)"

    "But then because of their disobedience it was taken away from Israel and given to the Church. In Matt. 21:43 Jesus said. “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.”

    "But this wasn’t to be permanent. After the Church disappears, the Kingdom will be restored to Israel. The early Church understood this, as evidenced by James’ prophecy in Acts 15:13-18 where he said that the Lord would first take from among the Gentiles a people for Himself, and after that would return to rebuild David’s fallen tabernacle. Later Paul confirmed this, saying that Israel had been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles come in, and after that Israel would be saved. (Romans 11:25-27)"

    "The Days Of Noah"

    “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26-27)

    Like it was in Noah’s time most people on Earth at the End of the Age will be unaware that life as they know it is about to end, not because they haven’t been warned but because they haven’t believed the warning. Noah is used as a model of the believing remnant of Israel at the end of the age, preserved through the judgment while the world is destroyed. Noah and his family remained in the general location of the judgment while the unbelievers were swept away in the flood.

    At the End of the Age Israel’s believing remnant will remain in the general location of the judgment but will be preserved while the Lord completely destroys the nations around them. Speaking of the time of Jacob’s Trouble (the Great Tribulation) in Jere. 30:11 the Lord said,

    I am with you and will save you,’ declares the LORD. ‘Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you.”

    In the symbolic language of Revelation the Jewish remnant is represented by a woman, while Satan is called the serpent.

    The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. (Rev. 12:14)"

    There is a lot of dispensationalist theology cited here, and very little on how the time of fulfillment of Luke 17: 26-29 will be like that of the historical time right before Noah's Flood, or how the mentality of the people at the time of the fulfillment of the Luke 17 prophecy would be similar to that before the Flood,in which God judged the entire generation.

    There is an interesting interpretation of Acts 15: 13-18 above: "But this wasn’t to be permanent. After the Church disappears, the Kingdom will be restored to Israel. The early Church understood this, as evidenced by James’ prophecy in Acts 15:13-18 where he said that the Lord would first take from among the Gentiles a people for Himself, and after that would return to rebuild David’s fallen tabernacle." The text says "And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

    The interpretation that James gives of Amos 9: 11-12 is in Acts 15: 13-14, " And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

    James interpreted Amos 9: 11-12 and similar Old Testament prophecies on the restoration of Old Covenant Israel as agreeing with Peter's saying that God had called a people out of the Gentiles for himself. The restoration of Amos 9: 11-12 is seen in the New Testament to be the New Covenant though some dispensationalists try to take advantage of the very brief and cryptic statements in Acts 15 and deny this is the case.

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    To study different types of dialogue which make use of the anti-thesis opposition to a thesis, you need verbatim statements of what was said. You have exactly that on ECT. But it would be good to compare this with examples of that kind of dialogue in the Leftist media, from the TV, newspaper and magazine news. Sometimes there are more than one person speaking on the mainstream News, and one person speaking can be treated as though it were dialogue because in many cases the News is part of an argument between the Left and the Right, or Conservative - or populist, Christian and/or Patriot positions.

    The Western culture which was influenced by the Protestant Reformation had. at least for the middle and lower middle classes, for many years held the belief that there is an objective reality which can be discovered and when discovered can be seen by everyone. I remember a statement made by Hans Selye, who was a pioneering endocrinologist, saying that research findings on stress, such as that it is additive and cumulative, can be seen by everyone and seen forever. This statement is part of the belief in Western European and in American culture at one time that there is an objective reality which can be found out and when found can be understood by a great many people.

    Then in about 1945 George Orwell published his collection of essays called, "In Front of Your Nose," including essays on the denial of objective reality, or the massive telling of lies in the media and elsewhere, espcially in the Communist and Nazi media.

    Isaiah 59: 14 says "for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter."

    Jeremiah 9: 3 says "And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth;"

    Study of verbatim records of dialogue in the Leftist media and even elsewhere now in society would show that George Orwell is right, there is a denial of objective reality going on and a lot of telling of lies in dialogue, in the dialectic process. And there would be a lot of dialectic argument about what is a lie and what is not a lie.

    So, the use of lies within the dialectic process is a denial of objective reality.

    "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." Romans 1: 25 Those of the dialectic mind changed the truth of God for a lie.

    Ephesians 4: 25 says "Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another."

    In dialogue which is driven by a strong desire to win the argument and defeat and discredit the opponent, the end is thought to justify the means and so lies or half lies are used to win. They are not thought of as being lies.

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    Or as your false idol, Donald Trump, recently re-described the Leftist media, northwye...

    "He seemed super upbeat," one person familiar with the calls said.

    Another person familiar with the calls said Trump told Pelosi her coverage was even better than his. “The press has been incredible,” Trump said.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...overage-242441
    lol - put that in your dialectic pipe and smoke it

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    Word of the day: dialectic
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    "Traditional Marxists scoffed at Transformational Marxists when they united socialism (Marx) with psychology (Freud). The Traditional Marxists eventually kicked the Transformational Marxists out of the official Communist Party. Yet universities around the world now consider the writings of these Transformational Marxists (Lukacs, Gramsci, and Korsch) as some of the most important reading a student can do if he is going to understand how the world is to function in the 21st century."

    "The key to dialectic thinking is the right to question, mock, and ridicule the traditional, didactic, patriarch authority paradigm. The facilitator’s agenda is to create and sustain such an environment. The very right to question the role of traditional authority has an effect on all participating in such surroundings. All but the strongest in faith are drawn by "the feeling of group belongingness" to trust and follow the facilitator. All who surrender to the "group feel" will harass those who question the facilitator’s "authority." Persecution is being harassed for holding to a position. The experience can be quite heated. "

    "Marxists, almost 100 years ago, realized that their goal of total global supremacy could be achieved by incorporating the methods Sigmund Freud used on his victims. Rejected by the Communist International, these Transformational Marxists came from Frankfurt Germany to the United States in 1933, the year Hitler became Germany’s chancellor. Through the use of role playing, devised by the Marxist, J. L. Moreno, and an understanding of group dynamics, by the Marxist Kurt Lewin, the patient was taken off the couch and is now placed in a group."

    Kurt Lewin was the founder of the Group Dynamics movement, which did experiments on group behavior in the fifties.

    "God's Word does three things:

    1) It presents truth external from all cultures, truth that could not be known without a
    direct revelation from God.

    2) It condemns the idolatry that all cultures practice. We all have at one time or
    another worshiped the works of our own hands and mind, and

    3) It transforms that which is good in all cultures, such as giving a glass of water to
    someone who is thirsty, but it is now done in the name of the creator and savior
    of the world, Jesus Christ."

    "Deliberately covering up this use of "humanistic reasoning skills" with selected affective scriptures, which is being done, only makes it more seductive to the undiscerning Christian."

    "The first phase, THESIS, can be identified as the traditional way of doing things. Yet in diaprax, this phase becomes what I call "THE THESIS INTERROGATION." The second phase, ANTITHESIS, is important transitional phase between the first and third phase, from tradition to transformation. This second phase has to be successfully crossed if the process is to accomplish its purpose."

    "In the traditional way of thinking, reality is based upon external evidence or facts with knowledge being the accumulation of these facts (quantity) as well as respect for and obedience toward them. In the transitional way of thinking, feelings determine reality. And in the transformational way of thinking, only what can be reasoned is real. Simply put, traditional thinking sees reality out there somewhere as facts, established for all times and places; transitional thinking sees reality in the heart, where facts can be overlooked in the pursuit of pleasure and where problems can be solved by simply going somewhere else that feels better."

    "After reading hundreds of socio-psychology books by men such as Abraham Maslow, Carl Rogers, Kurt Lewin, Warren Bennis, Antonio Gramsci, Lawrence Kohlberg, Ronald Havelock, Richard Bandler, and Ronald Lippitt the evidence is abundant and the intent is clear as to their use for this process. While some may naively refer to this process as the "reculturing of America," I recognize it as a deliberate plan by socio-psychologists to eliminate absolute faith in and obedience to God."

    "Hegel's dialectic was the cause for two world wars and many wars between and since. One historian recently stated that, during this century, all governments that used this process combined have been responsible for the killing of more than 250,000,000 of their own citizens. Abortion, like the Holocaust, could not have become legal without the aid of dialectic reasoning. Wherever this process has gone, it has brought death and despair while promising life and prosperity."

    "Somewhere within the process there lies a switch that confuses men's minds, numbs their feelings, and freezes their responses. Aware that something is gaining control over them and not able to explain or define what it is, they are unable to develop any response that will stop the process. This trigger shuts off man's awareness of impending danger (past history or depth history; depth perception) and freezes his ability to resist the process (indecision). The numbness one experiences comes from the fear of potential alienation and loss of respect because of the inability to explain the differences between what one says he believes (black and white) and what he does or desires to do (gray zone). This produces feelings that are not based on God's Word, but that are instead based upon the fear of losing respect in the eyes of others. This kind of fear prevents one from making an immediate or effective response. This fear is not from God, "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2 Tim 1:7). "

    "Although the scriptures warn us of the "traditions of elders," it does not ask us to abandon what traditional thinking longs for and depends upon, the belief in lasting facts or truths. To the Christian, man's longing and dependence must be upon God and His Word and not upon the things or comforts of this world. To a Christian, facts or truths are based upon the words of the Creator, His revelation about things external to the creation and beyond human-reasoning.

    Facts or truths of nature, evidenced in its design and motion, can be discovered through human-reasoning, but its purpose remains cosmic-bound—unknown—without God's Word. God's Word does not deny the facts or truths found within nature, known as the laws of nature, but only affirms that He created them and can supersede them at anytime, at His own choosing. This is something those under the influence of diaprax can never accept nor understand.

    "Therefore the key element in traditionalism is a dependence upon an external, overt, unchanging authority or the dependence upon lasting facts and truths which apply to all times and places—God's Word, the laws of nature. It is up to that authority or that truth to either reveal Himself to man (God), or to be discovered by man (the laws of nature). The laws of nature are discovered through "hard" science and requires evidence (sight) before being understood and accepted as fact: "I know therefore I believe." The Word of God requires trust and faith in the words of a higher authority because the evidence is unseen at the time and understanding comes only after trust is applied: "I believe therefore I know."

    "Somewhere within the process there lies a switch that confuses men's minds, numbs their feelings, and freezes their responses." And so many of them will mock those who warn them about the use of the dialectic.

    This is all from: http://www.professionalserve.com/dou...k/diaprax6.htm
    Last edited by northwye; September 8th, 2017 at 07:21 AM.

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    Did you ever decide if the text intended to reach beyond 1st century Judea?

    I have problems with people who 'double' Jesus' sayings, like STP. They think they've got the meaning but needed to spend much more time in the original milieu.

    After all, it ends with a line about vultures. You have to dig pretty deep for a 1st century meaning on that, and it may not transfer to modern times.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    Matthew 24: 28 in the KJV has eagles for αετοι. Luke 17: 37 has eagles for αετοιin the KJV.

    The NIV has vultures in Matthew 24: 28 - and also vultures for Luke 17: 37. Vultures is right because Christ is talking about dead bodies.

    To some extent Luke 17 is a version of Matthew 24 which has verses that apply to the First Century. But Luke 17: 24 starts talking about the appearing of Christ as in I Corinthians 15: 51-56. Then in Luke 17: 25 it starts to describe things that happen to Christ, that he will be rejected by this generation. This does not necessarily mean that the time setting for fulfillment of the prophecy of Luke 17: 26-27 is the generation alive in the First Century. It looks like a church theology - preterism - though a minority one, is saying the time of fulfillment of Luke 17: 26-27 is in the First Century. That is not the traditinal Protestant interpretation and the text does not clearly support the preterist view.

    John Gill says of Luke 17: 26 that "the times of Noah's flood, of Jerusalem's destruction, and of the end of the world, bear a great resemblance to each other: and when the son of man comes in either of these senses."

    Matthew Henry says of Luke 17: 26-27 that "Thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. When Christ came to destroy the Jewish nation by the Roman armies, that nation was found in such a state of false security as is here spoken of. In like manner, when Jesus Christ shall come to judge the world, sinners will be found altogether regardless; for in like manner the sinners of every age go on securely in their evil ways, and remember not their latter end. But wherever the wicked are, who are marked for eternal ruin, they shall be found by the judgments of God."

    "Geneva Study Bible
    {10} And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    (10) The world will be taken by surprise with the sudden judgment of God, and therefore the faithful ought to continually watch."

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    Prophecy via typology?
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Prophecy via typology?
    No - rather; northwye's dialectic versus IP's

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They think they've got the meaning but needed to spend much more time in the original milieu.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    I have problems with people who 'double' Jesus' sayings, like STP.
    Made up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Prophecy via typology?




    OK, but a reader should still stay as close to what Jesus was targeting to begin with. Not as close (far) as STP where Acts 7:13 is about the 2nd coming, of course! lol WOW! LITERALISM!!!

    In answer to several people here who have turned up their noses at scholarship. Let's go back to Luke 17's vultures. I am inclined to go with eagles, the mascot of Rome. So I would like to know why the NIV for ex. has gone with vultures, because it then places Jesus in the rebel mindset, and the whole force of Luke-Acts was to show that neither Christ nor Paul were a concern to Rome. Even retaliation for Christ's death was not going to be a concern, but Judaism's terrorists were.

    So if there were a piece of literature out there that settled this and was found in a lexicon (a book that 'stores' key citations of ancient words), it would be a more accurate reading of the Bible than not.

    That is what scholarship is supposed to do. It is not supposed to perpetuate the madness of people like Chafer who developed a whole 'system' of understanding the Bible because he thought it was confused.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    From I Timothy 6: 20-21 the concern of scripture with the dialectic is first of all on the opposition to the Truth, the Whole Gospel of Christ. This is why Paul in I Timothy 6: 20 uses the word αντιθεσεις, or anti-thesis, and does not use διαλεκτική, or dialectic. The anti-thesis is an opposition to the Truth.

    in Genesis 3: 2-6, "And the woman said unto the serpent of the fruit of the trees in the garden we may eat
    3 but of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden (said God) see that ye eat not and see that ye touch it not: lest ye die.
    4 Then said the Serpent unto the woman: trust ye shall not die:
    5 But God doth know that whensoever ye should eat of it your eyes should be opened and ye should be as God and know both good and evil."
    6 And the woman saw that it was a good tree to eat of and lusted unto the eyes and a pleasant tree for to make wise. And took of the fruit of it and ate and gave unto her husband also with her and he ate."

    The Serpent is teaching doctrine in direct opposition to that taught by God. Eve said God told them not to eat of the fruit of one tree and if they did so they would die. But the Serpent contradicted this and offered his own doctrine totally opposing that of God.

    In John 8: 31-33, 44, 52-53, the Pharisees were making an argument in direct opposition to what Christ was teaching, that "If ye continue in my word then are ye my very disciples
    32 and shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free." In the dialogue with Jesus the Pharisees opposed the doctrine of Christ and said to him, "We be Abraham's seed and were never bound to any man: why sayest thou then ye shall be made free...."

    The serpent and the Pharisees both told lies in opposing the Truth from God. In John 8 the Pharisees were telling a lie in saying they were then Abraham's seed and not bound to any man - because Christ the Messiah had arrived and had changed Abraham's seed from the physical to the spiritual or faith. The serpent in Genesis 3 told Eve lies in saying she and Adam would not die from disobeying God.

    "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

    Christ told the Pharisees that they were of their father the devil, and that he is a liar and the father of lies. Is not Satan the father of the anti-thesis used by the false prophets in opposition to the doctrines of Christ?

    And there are many specific tactics of the use of the dialectic as opposition to some truth or moral, some tactics being more dishonest than other tactics.

    One point in the use of the dialectic as an attitude and belief changing procedure is the repetition of the use of anti-theses. Those skilled in the use of a succession of anti-theses rather than the use of one single anti-thesis can keep at it and so gradually move the target person's beliefs toward that of the "facilitator."

    The serpent can be said to be the "Grand Facilitator," That would be beyond the understanding of most unless they were aware that the leader of encounter groups back in the sixties and seventies was called the facilitator.
    Last edited by northwye; September 8th, 2017 at 10:16 AM.

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    Could you cite the Chafer quote in my Chafer thread? thx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    OK, but a reader should still stay as close to what Jesus was targeting to begin with. Not as close (far) as STP where Acts 7:13 is about the 2nd coming, of course! lol WOW! LITERALISM!!!
    Lie.
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    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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