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Thread: The Order of Salvation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    But glancing at AMR's enumeration of his "golden chain of redemption", it is noticeable that PRIOR to his union to Christ, a person has already done the act of hearing, has begun a new life, has trusted (faith) in Christ, and has already repented.

    How can one begin a new life PRIOR to his union with Christ Who is his life? Is AMR suggesting there is life apart from Him Who is our life?
    Membership (union) in anything has prerequisite requirements. No one gets to join something if they fail to possess the requirements for the joining. Hence the proper ordering of the Golden Chain of Redemption. All of these events happen in the blink of the eye, save for sanctification and glorification. Hence, the orderings shown are logical orderings.

    The anti-Reformed or anti-Calvinist—Robert Pate for example—will argue faith precedes repentance, for they claim participatory moral ability in their quickening per their cling to libertarian free will. Of course we others believe strongly that Scripture teaches us that the non-believer cannot muster up faith, nor repentance, if and until God first acts (Exe. 36:26), given the desperate immoral state of the non-believer (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14) who is fallen in Adam. Once the non-believer is quickened (born again, regenerated), that person's moral ability has been radically changed such that this person will not not believe, and will be granted (John 3:8; Rom. 9:15-16; 2 Tim. 2:25) that which he or she could not muster up beforehand: faith and repentance.

    I do not assume for a moment that the person who professes faith understands all of these things at the moment of their re-birth. It is afterwards, as they are provoked by the Holy Spirit now indwelling them that they seek out to know more about their radical change. As they assemble corporately to worship God, receive instruction, as well as their own personal studies, not a few will come to a fuller understanding of the redemptive plan of God.

    AMR
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    Thanks for your response, AMR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Membership (union) in anything has prerequisite requirements. No one gets to join something if they fail to possess the requirements for the joining.
    Sounds like works-based salvation, to me, because of the "if".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Hence the proper ordering of the Golden Chain of Redemption. All of these events happen in the blink of the eye, save for sanctification and glorification. Hence, the orderings shown are logical orderings.
    How can the "hearing of the Scripture" happen in the blink of an eye? If it does, then what did he hear in a wink?

    God told Jeremiah He sanctified him before birth (Jer 1:5), and was done through the offering of the body of Christ (Heb 10:10) and those whom God sanctified He made perfect forever (Heb 10:14); therefore, sanctification is God's work FOR man (Ezek 20:12). But you said sanctification is a "walk of faith", hence man's work. Looks like yours contradicts scripture, doesn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The anti-Reformed or anti-Calvinist—Robert Pate for example—will argue faith precedes repentance, for they claim participatory moral ability in their quickening per their cling to libertarian free will. Of course we others believe strongly that Scripture teaches us that the non-believer cannot muster up faith, nor repentance, if and until God first acts (Exe. 36:26), given the desperate immoral state of the non-believer (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14) who is fallen in Adam. Once the non-believer is quickened (born again, regenerated), that person's moral ability has been radically changed such that this person will not not believe, and will be granted (John 3:8; Rom. 9:15-16; 2 Tim. 2:25) that which he or she could not muster up beforehand: faith and repentance.
    So how was he, the yet unregenerated non-believer, able to do the act of "hearing the scripture" which in your "logical orderings" occurs PRIOR to "regeneration"? How was he able to "muster beforehand" the ability to "hear the scripture" while yet totally depraved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Of course we others believe strongly that Scripture teaches us that the non-believer cannot muster up faith
    "When Jesus heard it, He marveled and said to those who followed, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!'" (Matthew 8:10)

    Whose faith was Jesus referring to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Satan would have us believe that the order of salvation is complicated and hard to understand and believe. when in reality it is very simple, so that even a small child can understand it.

    The Bible says, "There is a way that seem right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death" Proverbs 14:12

    Religion is the way of man. Religion will say that the order of salvation is that you must repent, confess, believe, be regenerated, be chosen, be baptized, submit, surrender, etc. If we examine what the Bible says about the order of salvation we will discover that none of the above is true. Perhaps that is why there are so many counterfeit Christians.

    Becoming a Christian is NOT WHAT WE DO. Many have become Christians like they have become members of the P.T.A. They have just joined the church like they joined any other association. Some of these do get saved unexpectedly by hearing and believing the Gospel.

    Paul tells us exactly what the order of salvation is, "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17. and then again he said, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith?" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.

    Paul wrote to the Hebrews, "For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it, Hebrews 4:12." Some heard the Gospel and believed it, some heard the Gospel and rejected it. This is how it is, the Gospel goes out in the world, some hear it and believe it, others hear it and reject it.

    In the Gospel we hear that Jesus atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. For some this is very hard to believe and embrace. There are many that cannot believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, they are unbelievers. This Gospel calls for a response, to not respond is a response. Those that respond with a heart full of love and gratitude for what Christ has done for them are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
    The Gospel is a Mystery to the natural man! 1 c
    Cor 2:7

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Again, I ask, must I re-type what I have already crafted in the past just to assuage a person's intellectual laziness? Why is it that, having been asked and answered the same or related questions in the past, there be a requirement for me to ignore what I have answered and just type it all over again? Do you type out each and every verse from Scripture or do you copy and paste them from your usual translation source? You are being nonsensical and a poor steward of your time granted by God to participate herein if you think re-typing previously prepared responses that are directly on point to a topic is a necessity.



    All evidence to the contrary, of course:
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...e-Holy-Trinity



    Spend your time wisely. For starters, disabuse yourself of the need to follow me about and inject yourself into a discussion. It is becoming a wee bit creepy, lady.

    AMR
    You copy and paste large amounts of information not needed or asked for. That debate we had proves it. You had a hard time answering questions without copying and pasting irrelevant information.

    What is creepy is you trying your best to bear false and slander another in the worst way you can think of.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Membership (union) in anything has prerequisite requirements. No one gets to join something if they fail to possess the requirements for the joining. Hence the proper ordering of the Golden Chain of Redemption. All of these events happen in the blink of the eye, save for sanctification and glorification. Hence, the orderings shown are logical orderings.

    The anti-Reformed or anti-Calvinist—Robert Pate for example—will argue faith precedes repentance, for they claim participatory moral ability in their quickening per their cling to libertarian free will. Of course we others believe strongly that Scripture teaches us that the non-believer cannot muster up faith, nor repentance, if and until God first acts (Exe. 36:26), given the desperate immoral state of the non-believer (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14) who is fallen in Adam. Once the non-believer is quickened (born again, regenerated), that person's moral ability has been radically changed such that this person will not not believe, and will be granted (John 3:8; Rom. 9:15-16; 2 Tim. 2:25) that which he or she could not muster up beforehand: faith and repentance.

    I do not assume for a moment that the person who professes faith understands all of these things at the moment of their re-birth. It is afterwards, as they are provoked by the Holy Spirit now indwelling them that they seek out to know more about their radical change. As they assemble corporately to worship God, receive instruction, as well as their own personal studies, not a few will come to a fuller understanding of the redemptive plan of God.

    AMR
    Paul's conversion is proof that your beliefs are ridiculous.
    Paul was not saved the moment he believed and had faith.
    He had to obey Jesus and then hear the message that saves and repent of his sins.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You copy and paste large amounts of information not needed or asked for. That debate we had proves it. You had a hard time answering questions without copying and pasting irrelevant information.

    What is creepy is you trying your best to bear false and slander another in the worst way you can think of.
    He is not trying to slander but to show you that your theology is flawed. You're modalistic type theology is not in line with Orthodox Christianity.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    Thanks for your response, AMR.Sounds like works-based salvation, to me, because of the "if".

    How can the "hearing of the Scripture" happen in the blink of an eye? If it does, then what did he hear in a wink?

    God told Jeremiah He sanctified him before birth (Jer 1:5), and was done through the offering of the body of Christ (Heb 10:10) and those whom God sanctified He made perfect forever (Heb 10:14); therefore, sanctification is God's work FOR man (Ezek 20:12). But you said sanctification is a "walk of faith", hence man's work. Looks like yours contradicts scripture, doesn't it?

    So how was he, the yet unregenerated non-believer, able to do the act of "hearing the scripture" which in your "logical orderings" occurs PRIOR to "regeneration"? How was he able to "muster beforehand" the ability to "hear the scripture" while yet totally depraved?
    You would do well as a hyper Calvinist.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    He is not trying to slander but to show you that your theology is flawed. You're modalistic type theology is not in line with Orthodox Christianity.
    He is trying to slander me. Go read more carefully what he said to me. He falsely accused me of following him around in a creepy way. This thread isn't even about the trinity. He is a Calvinist. Are you?
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Paul's conversion is proof that your beliefs are ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Spend your time wisely. For starters, disabuse yourself of the need to follow me about and inject yourself into a discussion. It is becoming a wee bit creepy, lady.
    Sigh.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The Gospel is a Mystery to the natural man! 1 c
    Cor 2:7

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    The mystery was revealed by those in the New Testament.

    The mystery was Jesus Christ.

    Colossians 4:3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post

    How can the "hearing of the Scripture" happen in the blink of an eye? If it does, then what did he hear in a wink?
    Read carefully. Post afterwards.

    After having been given ears to hear (regeneration) comes the hearing. It is instantaneous. How fast do we hear? I know the answer. Which is the faster stimuli, sight or sound? I know the answer.

    Be silent now or deal with the actual content rather than these nonsensical interruptions.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Sigh.

    AMR
    Paul's conversion disproves your false Calvin doctrines.

    Jesus saved Paul after Paul believed and obeyed him.

    When Paul was on the road to Damascus, Jesus spoke to him and Paul believed. Paul was not then saved.

    Acts 9:5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

    6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."…


    Paul had to obey Jesus before Jesus saved him...Paul had to go where Jesus told him to go; Paul went.

    After Paul went, he fasted; he did not eat or drink anything for three days.



    Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.


    Paul spent this time praying. If you do not think that Paul spent this time begging for forgiveness and repenting, then you would be badly mistaken.



    Acts 9:11 The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.


    When Paul had his vision restored to him, he was told to get up, be baptized and wash his sins away, calling on the Lord.

    When people were baptized with water that was symbolic of having their sins washed away, after they repented.

    In addition, people came out of the water after repenting and being baptized, they called upon the name of the Lord.

    We are told to believe, and repent, and to call upon the name of the Lord.


    Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."


    WILL BE SAVED---NOT are saved in the blink of an eye.


    Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'


    Paul did what we all are told to do.

    We have faith and obey that is how we are saved.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    He is trying to slander me. Go read more carefully what he said to me. He falsely accused me of following him around in a creepy way. This thread isn't even about the trinity. He is a Calvinist. Are you?
    I am not trying to slander you. Firstly, I suspect any claimed defamation would be akin to libel, not slander. Master the difference. It is also not libelous if what I have stated is borne out by the facts behind my statements, which they clearly are, as this conversation indicates. You are following me around, whining and pejoratively commenting about me. It is creepy, lady.



    If you respond once again, it is beyond creepy, but now stalking. Have some shame and dignity for your station in life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I am not trying to slander you. Firstly, I suspect any claimed defamation would be akin to libel, not slander. Master the difference. It is also not libelous if what I have stated is borne out by the facts behind my statements, which they clearly are, as this conversation indicates. You are following me around, whining and insulting me. It is creepy.



    AMR
    Calvinism is full of falseness. You stated that one is regenerated before they are saved to make them believe .
    Regeneration happens when one is saved. Regeneration happens when one receives the Holy Spirit when they are saved.

    God does not save unbelievers.

    He does not cause people to believe without their wanting and knowing.

    Faith does not come from God supernaturally giving us faith.

    Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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