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Thread: The Order of Salvation

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Rather obvious I agree isn't it?
    No, it is not always obvious.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Satan would have us believe that the order of salvation is complicated and hard to understand and believe. when in reality it is very simple, so that even a small child can understand it.
    Yes it is quite simple once one is reborn and seeks to understand from the provocations of the Holy Spirit exactly what happened:

    Romans 8:28-30
    The golden chain of redemption: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.

    Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)
    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    foreknowledge - God's love of His chosen (the elect) before time (Eph. 1:11).
    predestination - God's sovereign eternal decree as relates to the elect and the reprobate (Eph. 1:3-14).
    calling - God's ordinary means, the hearing of the Scripture, the outward call, that effectuates the inward call of the elect (Eph. 2:1-3).
    regeneration - the quickening of the "dead men walking" to life: new genesis, the beginning of a new life in a radically renewed person (1 Peter 1:23).
    faith - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen - a vital and personal trust in Christ as Savior and Lord (Rom. 10:5-13).
    repentance - the radical turning from sin to Christ, the fruit of regeneration (2 Cor. 7:8-12).
    justification - a forensic act of God declaring, counting, reckoning those "in Christ" righteous (Phil. 3:7-11).
    union to Christ - the joining of the regenerated (quickened) radically new person with Christ by God. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband; which is done in their effectual calling. (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 2:6-8).
    adoption - we are now related to Christ as branches of the True Vine, the children of God (John 15:1,5).
    sanctification - our walk of faith towards greater destruction of the dominion of sin and the lusts thereof (Rom.6:6,14; Gal.5:24; Rom.8:13).
    glorification - as we will be after the Lord's Second Coming (1 Cor. 15:53).

    Those not so reborn will never understand these simple truths (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14), despite Robert's claim that man possesses the ability to do so before God acts (Eze. 36:26). It is only when one is given a new heart that he or she begins to seek to understand the full explanations of their place in the Kingdom and begins to set aside their notions that he or she actually played some part in their quickening.

    Then again, Robert is adept at lifting verses here and there and appealing to them absent context and the full counsel of Scripture. This is why he presently is in a very confused state.

    AMR
    Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; September 4th, 2017 at 12:52 AM. Reason: grammar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Yes it is quite simple once one is reborn and seeks to understand exactly what happened:

    Romans 8:28-30
    The golden chain of redemption: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.

    Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)
    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    foreknowledge - God's love of His chosen (the elect) before time (Eph. 1:11).
    predestination - God's sovereign eternal decree as relates to the elect and the reprobate (Eph. 1:3-14).
    calling - God's ordinary means, the hearing of the Scripture, the outward call, that effectuates the inward call of the elect (Eph. 2:1-3).
    regeneration - the quickening of the "dead men walking" to life: new genesis, the beginning of a new life in a radically renewed person (1 Peter 1:23).
    faith - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen - a vital and personal trust in Christ as Savior and Lord (Rom. 10:5-13).
    repentance - the radical turning from sin to Christ, the fruit of regeneration (2 Cor. 7:8-12).
    justification - a forensic act of God declaring, counting, reckoning those "in Christ" righteous (Phil. 3:7-11).
    union to Christ - the joining of the regenerated (quickened) radically new person with Christ by God. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband; which is done in their effectual calling. (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 2:6-8).
    adoption - we are now related to Christ as branches of the True Vine, the children of God (John 15:1,5).
    sanctification - our walk of faith towards greater destruction of the dominion of sin and the lusts thereof (Rom.6:6,14; Gal.5:24; Rom.8:13).
    glorification - as we will be after the Lord's Second Coming (1 Cor. 15:53).

    Those not so reborn will never understand these simple truths (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14), despite Robert's claim that man possesses the ability to do so before God acts (Eze. 36:26).

    Then again, Robert is adept at lifting verses here and there and appealing to them absent context and the full counsel of Scripture. This is why he presently is in a very confused state.

    AMR
    You state, "Those not so reborn will never understand these simple truths".

    Yet, in your post you completely miss out conversion and attribute the effects of conversion to repentance.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    You state, "Those not so reborn will never understand these simple truths".

    Yet, in your post you completely miss out conversion and attribute the effects of conversion to repentance.
    How so?

    We have very different views of the word "conversion". Regeneration is a spiritual change; conversion is a spiritual motion.

    Your view of conversion:
    - a radical revolution or turn;
    - making progress, taking a course, actually proceeding in the new direction faced, as a result of turning; and
    - both turning and proceeding being done immediately. It is abrupt, sudden.The thing is done, and done thoroughly, radically and instantly.

    Of course, your second statement conflicts with what you imply by the third.

    Conversion is not an unusual, once-for-all, extraordinary, inexplicable experience through which one passes from the "dark night of the soul" to rapturous union with God. Instead conversion is a daily characteristic of a believing, regenerated child of God. Conversion ought to take place and does take place every day of a person’s life. As long as the believing child of God lives here in this world, that person is a believer who does battle with sin, not only in the world about him, but in his own flesh. This person is not yet perfect. He is not yet brought into the everlasting joy that shall be the inheritance of the people of God in glory. Here he is in the church militant. Here he must do battle. Here he carries with him the body of his death.

    Conversion has a beginning, continues through life, and is completed when the elect soul goes to glory. The continual nature of this action is what we generally associate with sanctification, but, as the great church divines insisted, sanctification is of the same nature as conversion.

    The great strength of the linear conversion concept is that it is fully in keeping with everything our Lord taught us regarding the kingdom of God and its hidden, but progressive, nature. This leaves room for the humble practice of self-examination and self-denial as a part of true kingdom conversion.

    Thus, though God alone is the author of conversion, it is important to stress, against any suggestions of a false passivity, that there is also cooperation of man in conversion which follows regeneration. In the Old Testament shubh (to turn about), the word most often used to denote conversion, is used 74 times of conversion as a deed of man, and only 15 times, of conversion as a gracious act of God. The New Testament represents conversion as a deed of man 26 times, and speaks of it only 2 or 3 times as an act of God. It should be kept in mind, however, that this activity of man always results from a previous work of God in man (Lamentations 5:21; Philippians 2:13). That man is active in conversion is quite evident from such passages as Isaiah 55:7; Jeremiah 18:11; Ezekiel 18:23; Ezekiel 18:32; 33:11; Acts 2:38; Acts 17:30, and others.


    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    How so?

    AMR
    You completely missed out conversion, because conversion is not listed. Or is this just a dream...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    How so?

    We have very different views of the word "conversion". Regeneration is a spiritual change; conversion is a spiritual motion.

    Your view of conversion:
    - a radical revolution or turn;
    - making progress, taking a course, actually proceeding in the new direction faced, as a result of turning; and
    - both turning and proceeding being done immediately. It is abrupt, sudden.The thing is done, and done thoroughly, radically and instantly.

    Of course, your second statement conflicts with what you imply by the third.

    Conversion is not an unusual, once-for-all, extraordinary, inexplicable experience through which one passes from the "dark night of the soul" to rapturous union with God. Instead conversion is a daily characteristic of a believing, regenerated child of God. Conversion ought to take place and does take place every day of a person’s life. As long as the believing child of God lives here in this world, that person is a believer who does battle with sin, not only in the world about him, but in his own flesh. This person is not yet perfect. He is not yet brought into the everlasting joy that shall be the inheritance of the people of God in glory. Here he is in the church militant. Here he must do battle. Here he carries with him the body of his death.

    Conversion has a beginning, continues through life, and is completed when the elect soul goes to glory. The continual nature of this action is what we generally associate with sanctification, but, as the great church divines insisted, sanctification is of the same nature as conversion.

    The great strength of the linear conversion concept is that it is fully in keeping with everything our Lord taught us regarding the kingdom of God and its hidden, but progressive, nature. This leaves room for the humble practice of self-examination and self-denial as a part of true kingdom conversion.

    Thus, though God alone is the author of conversion, it is important to stress, against any suggestions of a false passivity, that there is also cooperation of man in conversion which follows regeneration. In the Old Testament shubh (to turn about), the word most often used to denote conversion, is used 74 times of conversion as a deed of man, and only 15 times, of conversion as a gracious act of God. The New Testament represents conversion as a deed of man 26 times, and speaks of it only 2 or 3 times as an act of God. It should be kept in mind, however, that this activity of man always results from a previous work of God in man (Lamentations 5:21; Philippians 2:13). That man is active in conversion is quite evident from such passages as Isaiah 55:7; Jeremiah 18:11; Ezekiel 18:23; Ezekiel 18:32; 33:11; Acts 2:38; Acts 17:30, and others.


    AMR
    I have no time for your cut and paste responses. Your understanding of salvation is speculative and theoretical.
    It is construed and constructed to impress rather than to feed. It is the convoluted method of so called teaching by the modern reformed adherents. I've been among them and listened/read the same repetitive poison that you spout as did the "knowledgeable" cult of the pharisees. I have provided you with the fact that you missed out "conversion" and you drown the fact in many words.

    Why did you miss out conversion? No need to cut and pastes a dissertation.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    You completely missed out conversion, because conversion is not listed. Or is this just a dream...
    You probably posted before I completed my final edits above:

    Conversion has a beginning, continues through life, and is completed when the elect soul goes to glory. The continual nature of this action is what we generally associate with sanctification, but, as the great church divines insisted, sanctification is of the same nature as conversion.

    Like I said, above, you have your own cobbled up vocabulary of words, including, conversion. The disagreements we have will never vanish as long as one of us is accustomed to ignoring those that have been illuminated by the same Spirit we are and have come before us. You may think these folks have nothing to say to us, for we are just so much more wise and illuminated than these old, dead, guys were. This sort of chronological snobbery and Lone Ranger believism has no place in the discussion. You attend no church. You refuse to covenant yourself with the visible vestige of Our Lord's Bride. You refuse to submit to the exhortations, teachings, and discipline of the ordained servants of Our Lord. For you, all of Paul's pains to lay out exactly what these men's qualifications were to be was just window dressing and wasted inspired text, for there is apparently no need for them or the means of grace that spring from their efforts at all. Hence we will continue to be at odds on matters of of doctrine, for you have elevated yourself to be the sole interpreter of Holy Writ despite the clear teachings of the same as relates to interpretation in a community of like-minded saints.

    AMR
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    I have no time for your cut and paste responses.
    Of course you do not. Attempting to cast my own words disparagingly does not relieve you of their import. Yours is the usual retort of the "Just Me and My Bible" sort.

    My original post to which you responded was not directed to you. You inserted yourself into the discussion. Accordingly, your behavior has consequences, one of which is the plain demonstration to you of your manifest errors. Better for you to just move along and ignore me rather than to continue to give evidence of your shortcomings.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    You probably posted before I completed my final edits above:

    Conversion has a beginning, continues through life, and is completed when the elect soul goes to glory. The continual nature of this action is what we generally associate with sanctification, but, as the great church divines insisted, sanctification is of the same nature as conversion.

    Like I said, above, you have your own cobbled up vocabulary of words, including, conversion. The disagreements we have will never vanish as long as one of us is accustomed to ignoring those that have been illuminated by the same Spirit we are and have come before us. You may think these folks have nothing to say to us, for we are just so much more wise and illuminated than these old, dead, guys were. This sort of chronological snobbery and Lone Ranger believism has no place in the discussion. You attend no church. You refuse to covenant yourself with the visible vestige of Our Lord's Bride. You refuse to submit to the exhortations, teachings, and discipline of the ordained servants of Our Lord. For you, all of Paul's pains to lay out exactly what these men's qualifications were to be was just window dressing and wasted inspired text, for there is apparently no need for them or the means of grace that spring from their efforts at all. Hence we will continue to be at odds on matters of of doctrine, for you have elevated yourself to be the sole interpreter of Holy Writ despite the clear teachings of the same as relates to interpretation in a community of like-minded saints.

    AMR
    Final edits?

    You posted "How so?" and then added a cut and paste from your files. That is why I refuse to read you regurgitated opinions.

    Your lack of understanding in regard the conversion is proof you have never experienced it. You are in the same boat as pate as far as spiritual blindness goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Final edits?

    You posted "How so?" and then added a cut and paste from your files. That is why I refuse to read you regurgitated opinions.

    Your lack of understanding in regard the conversion is proof you have never experienced it. You are in the same boat as pate as far as spiritual blindness goes.
    Must I personally retype that which I have crafted previously to satisfy your intellectual laziness?

    Do you actually think the things you are asserting are novel and heretofore never answered by me?

    Do you actually type out the verses of Scripture you post? I cannot really ask the same as relates to the actual discussion of these verses you copy and paste, for said interpretative efforts by you are usually nothing more than short pithy phrases absent any evidence of discipline and discernment. So when you encounter someone unaccustomed to your Lone Ranger walk of faith, you cannot mount reasoned defenses, for the only tool available to you is vitriol.

    You are just not that unique, Truster.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    I think that you are a religious nut case.

    You want us to believe that one man and one woman that are infected with the sin gene can produce a sinless child.
    Because of God's grace, why not? Even Christ Himself in the parables of the lost (Luke 15) explained that people don't start life lost. You have not even addressed that, my brother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    And then you want us to believe that we are born again by Christ without first choosing Christ. I have spent way to much time on you. You are indeed another nut case.
    Thank you for name-calling. NOT able to defend your position you resort to ad-hominem, Pate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Yes it is quite simple once one is reborn and seeks to understand from the provocations of the Holy Spirit exactly what happened:

    Romans 8:28-30
    The golden chain of redemption: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.

    Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)
    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    foreknowledge - God's love of His chosen (the elect) before time (Eph. 1:11).
    predestination - God's sovereign eternal decree as relates to the elect and the reprobate (Eph. 1:3-14).
    calling - God's ordinary means, the hearing of the Scripture, the outward call, that effectuates the inward call of the elect (Eph. 2:1-3).
    regeneration - the quickening of the "dead men walking" to life: new genesis, the beginning of a new life in a radically renewed person (1 Peter 1:23).
    faith - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen - a vital and personal trust in Christ as Savior and Lord (Rom. 10:5-13).
    repentance - the radical turning from sin to Christ, the fruit of regeneration (2 Cor. 7:8-12).
    justification - a forensic act of God declaring, counting, reckoning those "in Christ" righteous (Phil. 3:7-11).
    union to Christ - the joining of the regenerated (quickened) radically new person with Christ by God. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace, whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband; which is done in their effectual calling. (Eph. 1:22; Eph. 2:6-8).
    adoption - we are now related to Christ as branches of the True Vine, the children of God (John 15:1,5).
    sanctification - our walk of faith towards greater destruction of the dominion of sin and the lusts thereof (Rom.6:6,14; Gal.5:24; Rom.8:13).
    glorification - as we will be after the Lord's Second Coming (1 Cor. 15:53).

    AMR
    Not quite different from Pate's, although a bit more intricate.

    I don't think anybody here in TOL will object that Christ is our life (Col 3:4) and the only source of power (John 15:5; 1 Cor 1:24). Unless in Him, one is lifeless. Unless PLUGGED IN to Him, one is powerless.

    But glancing at AMR's enumeration of his "golden chain of redemption", it is noticeable that PRIOR to his union to Christ, a person has already done the act of hearing, has begun a new life, has trusted (faith) in Christ, and has already repented.

    How can one begin a new life PRIOR to his union with Christ Who is his life? Is AMR suggesting there is life apart from Him Who is our life?

    From where did he get the power to hear, trust and repent while NOT yet plugged in to the ONLY Source of Power? Is AMR suggesting that there is another Source of Power other than Christ Who is the Power of God?

    To me, AMR's golden chain looks more like a cart-before-the-horse scenario.

    But I think AMR can very well explain with Scriptures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samie View Post
    Because of God's grace, why not? Even Christ Himself in the parables of the lost (Luke 15) explained that people don't start life lost. You have not even addressed that, my brother.

    Thank you for name-calling. NOT able to defend your position you resort to ad-hominem, Pate?
    Jesus came for the LOST sheep of Israel. That means he came first for those who were already saved and belonged to God.

    John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

    Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel, and he taught the new rules to enter the new covenant. He taught who he saves and why, so that we can become sheep too.

    After Jesus was crucified, then all can come to him to be saved.

    John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  14. #74
    All I want is God's Truth God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    Final edits?

    You posted "How so?" and then added a cut and paste from your files. That is why I refuse to read you regurgitated opinions.

    Your lack of understanding in regard the conversion is proof you have never experienced it. You are in the same boat as pate as far as spiritual blindness goes.
    That is exactly what AMR does. He merely copies and pastes an excess from his files. He doesn't know how to debate.
    Last edited by God's Truth; September 4th, 2017 at 03:35 PM.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    That is exactly what AMR does. He merely copy and pastes an excess of from his files.
    Again, I ask, must I re-type what I have already crafted in the past just to assuage a person's intellectual laziness? Why is it that, having been asked and answered the same or related questions in the past, there be a requirement for me to ignore what I have answered and just type it all over again? Do you type out each and every verse from Scripture or do you copy and paste them from your usual translation source? You are being nonsensical and a poor steward of your time granted by God to participate herein if you think re-typing previously prepared responses that are directly on point to a topic is a necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    He doesn't know how to debate.
    All evidence to the contrary, of course:
    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...e-Holy-Trinity



    Spend your time wisely. For starters, disabuse yourself of the need to follow me about and inject yourself into a discussion. It is becoming a wee bit creepy, lady.

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