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Thread: Have you been deceived by Satan through your church?

  1. #76
    Over 4000 post club 1Mind1Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZacharyB View Post
    The only clear NT verse that I know of is ...
    "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins!" (John 8:24)

    This verse (and about 7 similar ones in John) do NOT have a "he" after "I AM"
    in the original Greek.
    The translators have added "he" simply for readability.
    Shore enough, since "he" was bearing witness of Himself.


    John 8:12

    12*Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    You are so full venom, bitterness and spite, it's shameful
    He's overflowing.

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    John 5:24... Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life

    You "believe" a "believer" comes under God's "Judgment"? Jesus said Truly twice... don't you believe HIM?
    A thought on that...

    Compare the Scriptures - escaping or meeting with that judgment is at the last resurrection, is based on works, being that it pertains to the Law Covenant, and does not apply to the Body, which is Under Grace.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    In short, though your intent is obviously a good one, none of that applies to the Body, which is under a Mystery Grace in accordance with what the Apostle Paul refers to as his gospel.

    See Romans 2 thru 6, and Romans 15 and 16.

    The seemingly odd thing about THE Mystery's Grace being that when it is abused, it only proves why Romans 5:8 was necessary.

    Romans 5:8 - Amazing Grace...indeed.

    If only the works based types would see this - "what a day of rejoicing that will be!"

    Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Til then, and nevertheless...

    Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    That too is the grace of Romans 5:8.

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  6. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    A thought on that...

    Compare the Scriptures - escaping or meeting with that judgment is at the last resurrection, is based on works, being that it pertains to the Law Covenant, and does not apply to the Body, which is Under Grace.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    In short, though your intent is obviously a good one, none of that applies to the Body, which is under a Mystery Grace in accordance with what the Apostle Paul refers to as his gospel.

    See Romans 2 thru 6, and Romans 15 and 16.

    The seemingly odd thing about THE Mystery's Grace being that when it is abused, it only proves why Romans 5:8 was necessary.

    Romans 5:8 - Amazing Grace...indeed.

    If only the works based types would see this - "what a day of rejoicing that will be!"

    Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Til then, and nevertheless...

    Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    That too is the grace of Romans 5:8.
    I disagree that Marhig's perspective is okay... but agree she should be shown grace by us. In this I get why you said what you did. I don't think people here are validating one another... but Jesus and Who He is.

    I cannot refrain from your Dispensational point here. So... publicly... despite the pot you stirred... I have thanked your post here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    I keep saying to you over and over,

    God is helping me daily overcome this world,
    Which is the buzz of every worker bee. ".....ME....overcome this world."

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  9. #81
    ☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) ☜☜☜☜☞☞☞☞ A Calvinist! ☜☜☜☜☜ Ask Mr. Religion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    "7. The church confesses the Trinity to be a mystery beyond the full comprehension of man . There are absolutely no human analogies that can be made to capture the mystery of the Trinity,"

    By church you obviously mean the denominations.
    By "church" I mean the church militant (believers on earth). Your regular and presumptuous attempts at floccinaucinihilipilification notwithstanding, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    The Biblical analogy is that the likeness in which man was created is also triune. Body, soul and spirit. You won't find that in your creeds because it is from the mind of the Spirit and exists in the minds of the holy.
    You do not understand what you have read if you take from your reading that man is a trichotomy.

    Trichotomy.pdf <-- Which is why you are partially correct to observe that the creeds and confessions do not presume what you have presumed.

    These creedal/confessional statements of doctrine are accurate summaries of the teachings of Holy Writ from the patterns therein that have withstood the test of time and examination by the church militant (2 Tim 1:13; 2 Thess. 2:15; 2 Thess. 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2; 1 Cor. 15:1-2).

    Spoiler

    2 Timothy 1:13 (KJV)
    2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 (KJV)
    2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    2 Thessalonians 3:6 (KJV)
    2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

    1 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV)
    1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (KJV)
    1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.


    You do seem to enjoy being a voice in the wilderness claiming to have discovered the right path, while ignoring the old paths, well-worn and proven stable after much examination and testing over the centuries. Of course, you are in good company herein at TOL, given that not a few also wrap themselves with the cloak of self-righteousness, holding themselves forth as emissaries of the truth. Would that all the saints that came before us were as illuminated and as discerning as you and others claim to be. Sigh.

    AMR
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  10. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    By "church" I mean the church militant (believers on earth). Your regular and presumptuous attempts at floccinaucinihilipilification notwithstanding, of course.



    You do not understand what you have read if you take from your reading that man is a trichotomy.

    Trichotomy.pdf <-- Which is why you are partially correct to observe that the creeds and confessions do not presume what you have presumed.

    These creedal/confessional statements of doctrine are accurate summaries of the teachings of Holy Writ from the patterns therein (2 Tim 1:13; 2 Thess. 2:15; 2 Thess. 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2; 1 Cor. 11:23-26; 1 Cor. 15:1-4) that have withstood the test of time and examination by the church militant.

    You do seem to enjoy being a voice in the wilderness claiming to have discovered the right path, while ignoring the old paths, well-worn and proven stable after much examination and testing over the centuries. Of course, you are in good company herein at TOL, given that not a few also wrap themselves with the cloak of self-righteousness, holding themselves forth as emissaries of the truth. Would that all the saints that came before us were as illuminated and as discerning as you and others claim to be. Sigh.

    AMR
    You must have come accross a few people like me over the years and you would always have hated them. We know what you are and the spirit that works in you. I'm pleased to have crossed paths with you and I hope I will be the last you get to despise.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

  11. #83
    Over 4000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Very interesting thread and post.

    You list scriptures, unlike some who simply feel that on this forum, scripture is an option or even unnecessary to make a point.

    I thought you might want some additional food for thought.

    Jeremiah 15:16


    Please tell me why NT passages such as these do NOT apply to you
    Jesus Christ was busy fulfilling the law, the Old T law.

    Thus from that point of view, shouldn't the gospels should be part of the OT?

    The New T should start with the book of Act, for it is with the book of Acts then Paul's epistles we find out what the fulfillment of the law by Jesus Christ made available to us.

    The gospel period was still under the law, even as Jesus Christ was fulfilling it.

    His finished work on earth made possible a new age, the age of grace where the law of the spirit of life, Romans 8:1-2, in Christ Jesus, not the law of Moses has superiority.

    Therefore,

    “… wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to (eternal)
    destruction … narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which
    leads to (eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

    The truth of the narrow way has not at all been taught in its full reality.
    There are many NT verses which prove how narrow the way really is!

    has limited application to believers in this age of grace, for that statement was given for those who were present when Jesus Christ's ministry was still a work in progress. Ie, he had not fulfilled the law yet.

    Of course, that does not mean we have license to sin, for we still are to abide by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which Paul's epistles are the standard.

    Jesus Christ's fulfillment of the law of Moses made it possible for us to live, not under the law of Moses, but by a greater law, the grace of the epistles of Paul.

    Now, to receive salvation is still a narrow path as Romans 10:9-10 make clear.

    For a unsaved person to receive the gift of salvation, that person must meet the two prerequisites stated there.

    1. confess with the mouth the lord Jesus

    2. believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.

    Note that the first item does not say confess with your mouth

    a. the Lord God,

    b. that Jesus is God the son

    c. that Jesus is God.

    d. that Mary was co saver of the world

    e. That Roman Catholic church or ________ denomination is the true church

    f. that your theology is right

    the list could go on.

    It is a narrow path regarding what to confess,

    specifically, the lord Jesus.

    The second part is very specific, or very narrow as well.

    It does not say to believe in your heart that

    a. Jesus raised himself from the dead

    b. Jesus is part of a trinity of God and only the Jesus part died leaving the other two parts to raise him.

    c.. that unless you keep the law of Moses including the gospels, you're dead meat

    that list could as well.

    So Romans 10:9 is quite narrow as well, but like the law of Moses, for Jesus Christ fulfilled the law.


    Likewise with much of your next paragraph

    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom
    of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven …
    I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you (approved of you); depart
    from Me, you who practice lawlessness (sin)!’ ” (Matthew 7:21-23)

    There’s much more to doing God’s will than merely believing in Jesus!
    Yes, sin keeps you out of the kingdom … see the NT “sin lists”
    (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:3-6).

    First of all, the phrase "kingdom of heaven" appears only in the gospel of Matthew, thus placing the kingdom of God within the gospel period of which Christians are not a part of.

    Likewise, saying "Lord, Lord" is not a requirement to receive salvation in this age of grace, see above.

    The will of the Father in heaven in this age of grace is a two parter.

    I Timothy 2:4

    1. Receive salvation by doing Romans 10:9

    2. come to the knowledge of the truth. II Timothy 2:15 and II Peter 1:20 tell us a little more about what "THE knowledge of THE truth" means.

    Note it does not say "a knowledge of a truth"...

    Of course, the verses you listed from the epistles does apply to us.
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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  13. #84
    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    As you know... I have an Open Theological leaning.., yet I still believe in OSAS... but I fully comprehend your point and respect it tremendously. I'm ultimately thankful for the time you take to challenge each of us from time to time... and also perpetually exalt Jesus Christ... our Lord, God and Savior.
    and I wish to thank you for noticing it doe take m extra effort to sit up at night and type long responses.

    Maybe you could take time to explain to members like oatmeal why the belief in the divinity of Jesus is prerequisite to being a true Christian. Anyone truly save knows this! It is not that I am above explaining this myself; it is more the typing issue.

    On OSAS and OV, I might feel up to explaining the difference, when I am up late and feeling good about sitting up straight.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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  15. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    and I wish to thank you for noticing it doe take m extra effort to sit up at night and type long responses.

    Maybe you could take time to explain to members like oatmeal why the belief in the divinity of Jesus is prerequisite to being a true Christian. Anyone truly save knows this! It is not that I am above explaining this myself; it is more the typing issue.

    On OSAS and OV, I might feel up to explaining the difference, when I am up late and feeling good about sitting up straight.
    You can't have it both ways - you can't have both "OSAS" and "a prerequisite to being a true Christian."

    Plenty of people find out about the Divinity of Christ even being an issue long after they were OSAS.

    Should they later find out about it and choose against it, it's too late - OSAS.

    In fact, this issue was not even an issue til way after the 1st Century.

    Romans 5:8 remains intact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    You can't have it both ways - you can't have both "OSAS" and "a prerequisite to being a true Christian."

    Plenty of people find out about the Divinity of Christ even being an issue long after they were OSAS.

    Should they later find out about it and choose against it, it's too late - OSAS.

    In fact, this issue was not even an issue til way after the 1st Century.

    Romans 5:8 remains intact.
    Not sure what you are saying/ No one saved in Christ who later finds out some deny the divinity of Christ, then choose against Him.

    then again I am not sure what you mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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  18. #87
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    oatmeal, regarding your thoughts on Romans 10, in the post in the Spoiler below...

    One's actual physical heart is no more what is meant than one's actual physical mouth is.

    The actual issue is that of the actual heart of one's mind on a matter, of one's actual thoughts on it.

    Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

    Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )

    Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    The thing is a figure of speech - the mind is what is actually meant.

    Note...

    2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

    2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

    2 Corinthians 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

    2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    There are many passages in the Scripture attesting to this fact, which a simple word comparison - in the Scripture - brings out.

    lol - even the so called "MADs" on here (in contrast to actually consistent MADs) misfire on that one.

    Here are a few more examples...

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    Now do the same for the word "mouth."

    Nevertheless, Romans 5:8

    Spoiler
    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    Very interesting thread and post.

    You list scriptures, unlike some who simply feel that on this forum, scripture is an option or even unnecessary to make a point.

    I thought you might want some additional food for thought.

    Jeremiah 15:16




    Jesus Christ was busy fulfilling the law, the Old T law.

    Thus from that point of view, shouldn't the gospels should be part of the OT?

    The New T should start with the book of Act, for it is with the book of Acts then Paul's epistles we find out what the fulfillment of the law by Jesus Christ made available to us.

    The gospel period was still under the law, even as Jesus Christ was fulfilling it.

    His finished work on earth made possible a new age, the age of grace where the law of the spirit of life, Romans 8:1-2, in Christ Jesus, not the law of Moses has superiority.

    Therefore,

    “… wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to (eternal)
    destruction … narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which
    leads to (eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

    The truth of the narrow way has not at all been taught in its full reality.
    There are many NT verses which prove how narrow the way really is!

    has limited application to believers in this age of grace, for that statement was given for those who were present when Jesus Christ's ministry was still a work in progress. Ie, he had not fulfilled the law yet.

    Of course, that does not mean we have license to sin, for we still are to abide by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which Paul's epistles are the standard.

    Jesus Christ's fulfillment of the law of Moses made it possible for us to live, not under the law of Moses, but by a greater law, the grace of the epistles of Paul.

    Now, to receive salvation is still a narrow path as Romans 10:9-10 make clear.

    For a unsaved person to receive the gift of salvation, that person must meet the two prerequisites stated there.

    1. confess with the mouth the lord Jesus

    2. believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.

    Note that the first item does not say confess with your mouth

    a. the Lord God,

    b. that Jesus is God the son

    c. that Jesus is God.

    d. that Mary was co saver of the world

    e. That Roman Catholic church or ________ denomination is the true church

    f. that your theology is right

    the list could go on.

    It is a narrow path regarding what to confess,

    specifically, the lord Jesus.

    The second part is very specific, or very narrow as well.

    It does not say to believe in your heart that

    a. Jesus raised himself from the dead

    b. Jesus is part of a trinity of God and only the Jesus part died leaving the other two parts to raise him.

    c.. that unless you keep the law of Moses including the gospels, you're dead meat

    that list could as well.

    So Romans 10:9 is quite narrow as well, but like the law of Moses, for Jesus Christ fulfilled the law.


    Likewise with much of your next paragraph

    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom
    of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven …
    I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you (approved of you); depart
    from Me, you who practice lawlessness (sin)!’ ” (Matthew 7:21-23)

    There’s much more to doing God’s will than merely believing in Jesus!
    Yes, sin keeps you out of the kingdom … see the NT “sin lists”
    (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:3-6).

    First of all, the phrase "kingdom of heaven" appears only in the gospel of Matthew, thus placing the kingdom of God within the gospel period of which Christians are not a part of.

    Likewise, saying "Lord, Lord" is not a requirement to receive salvation in this age of grace, see above.

    The will of the Father in heaven in this age of grace is a two parter.

    I Timothy 2:4

    1. Receive salvation by doing Romans 10:9

    2. come to the knowledge of the truth. II Timothy 2:15 and II Peter 1:20 tell us a little more about what "THE knowledge of THE truth" means.

    Note it does not say "a knowledge of a truth"...

    Of course, the verses you listed from the epistles does apply to us.

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  20. #88
    Over 2000 post club Eagles Wings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    By "church" I mean the church militant (believers on earth). Your regular and presumptuous attempts at floccinaucinihilipilification notwithstanding, of course.

    You do not understand what you have read if you take from your reading that man is a trichotomy.

    Trichotomy.pdf <-- Which is why you are partially correct to observe that the creeds and confessions do not presume what you have presumed.
    I always appreciate learning a new word. 😉.

    Looking forward to reading this attachment through a couple of times.
    Psalm 42:1-2 (KJV)

    1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

    2 My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?
    .

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    Ask Mr. Religion (September 6th, 2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    Not sure what you are saying/ No one saved in Christ who later finds out some deny the divinity of Christ, then choose against Him.

    then again I am not sure what you mean?
    lol - poor Tam; she is now ever so eager to high-five against me she obviously forgot that because there is ever the need to be not conformed unto this world as to one's mind on one thing or another, any saved person can wind up concluding against the divinity of Christ due to some unfortunate logic bought into.

    Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    Then again, evil communications corrupt good manners.

    Nevertheless...

    2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Why?

    Romans 5:8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles Wings View Post
    I always appreciate learning a new word. 😉.

    Looking forward to reading this attachment through a couple of times.
    Great word Trichotomy: a three-fold cut, or division in things.

    As in the Apostle Paul's Three-Fold, or Dispensational, understanding of God's dealings with Man.

    Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

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